Debates of May 31, 2005 (day 5)

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Without having asked any of those questions or gotten information on that or not having had these senior officials talking to those people who are involved in education, how could the Minister have any kind of confidence or any kind of expectation? When was he going to communicate this confidence in education to those who are going to be responsible for taking care of these children? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Dent.

Further Return To Question 64-15(4): Educational Needs Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have tremendous confidence in the people who administer and deliver the education program in the Northwest Territories and I spoke about that earlier today in the successes that we’ve seen in education. We have a tremendous cadre of professional people who are well qualified to deliver the programs that are offered in education across the Territories.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 64-15(4): Educational Needs Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. That very mundane, feel good, general statement that the Minister is making is showing just more clearly than ever before how little he knows about the needs of these youth in the centre. These are not people who can benefit from the mainstream programming that we have. They are in need of very, very specialized services, which if the Minister would take time talking to them would tell him that it is in jeopardy of being dismantled. So would the Minister direct his senior officials to talk to the educators and those who provide services to these people, talk to the real people on the ground and find out exactly what they do provide and then find out from Hay River what they have there? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Dent.

Further Return To Question 64-15(4): Educational Needs Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Madam Speaker, the Member has presented herself as an expert as to whether or not the people in Yellowknife are more expert themselves than the people in the other communities. I don’t accept that. I would say that we have people with the same qualifications available to us across the Northwest Territories.

Thank you, Minister Dent. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 64-15(4): Educational Needs Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Going by the very defensive answer of the Minister, I know I have the Cabinet cornered and they do not have answers.

Oooh.

They do not have the answers that the people are entitled to know. Now let me ask the Minister…Now I just forgot a very good question that I had for the Minister. I was just too excited about having you cornered. Madam Speaker, would the Minister of Education please direct his senior officials to find out this information as soon as possible and present exactly what the educational needs are? Because I’m telling you the Minister will find that there are a lot of special needs that he’s not aware of. Thank you.

Thank you for the question and the answer, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 64-15(4): Educational Needs Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don’t know if it’s because we’re in a round building, but I haven’t felt cornered by the Member in her questions.

Oooh.

I was offended that the Member would make the statements she was making, categorizing some of the people in other communities as not being as capable.

Hey, hey.

That is not right. I have said in this House that I am satisfied that the programs can be delivered adequately in the Northwest Territories in communities other than Yellowknife. We are not the only community that has experts. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to direct a couple of questions to the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources in respect to the Hook Lake bison recovery project in Fort Resolution. Just for public record, could the Minister let the people know in Deninu Kue if the department has initiated any plans to do a comprehensive cost analysis to relocate the herd to the Little Buffalo River site of the previous herd that was there a few years back? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, there has been some preliminary work done on that request but, as the Member knows, the herd is currently under quarantine and we’re waiting for some secondary test results to come back so that we can determine the future of the herd more definitively. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, the Minister has made my office aware that June 20th is the big day that these tests are supposed to come back and are going to determine the fate of the Hook Lake bison recovery project. Either way I am trying to let the community know that either way the bison are going to go, come positive or negative results from the lab. So I just want to make sure that the department is actually prepared to move should the tests come back negative for tuberculosis or whatever bison diseases they are looking for, and would the department be in there within a timely manner, hopefully by this summer, to move the herd away from the community as is the wishes of the community and the constituents? They all want the herd relocated, come positive or negative. Could the Minister let us know that this will happen this summer if the tests do come back negative? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, there are two significant issues; one is more short-term and one is longer term. In the short term we’re waiting for the test results to come back to confirm or not the initial potential findings of one of the tests that were done on the buffalo of the Hook Lake herd that are outside of the community. The other bigger piece is if there was a broader plan here at play to try to deal with the issue of diseased bison that exist in the park and outside of the park in the Northwest Territories and down into Alberta, and the point of the Hook Lake herd was to have a disease-free herd that could be maintained for a relatively short period of time until the issue of diseased bison is dealt with in the Wood Buffalo Park and in the Northwest Territories and Alberta. There has been almost no movement on that broader outside issue. So we have to make a program decision, as well.

We’ve been carrying this herd, we’ve been maintaining it. There’s no money currently in the budget. It is being funded from other sources. If the tests prove that the herd is still healthy, then the other issue is what’s the point? Are we going to continue to keep them, and if we are going to keep them, for how long, and are we going to have any movement on the broader issue of these bison? The point is not just to keep them for no other purpose than just having them in a corral where there are crowding issues and there are other fundamental issues to deal with. So I think the Member is aware this is a very complex issue, and we’re going to try to look at it carefully to make the right decision. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for his reply and assurances that there are things that they are looking at. In the short-term with the test results coming back, if they come back negative, that’s great. If they come back positive, the herd is going to go anyway. But with the future of the Hook Lake program itself, I guess the long-term issues that were discussed were moving some bulls to the Mackenzie Bison Sanctuary in order to mix the genetic pool a little bit and move some young bulls to Saskatoon for research down there.

In the short term, the community wants the bison herd moved. It is right next to town. You can smell the bison droppings all summer and people are just getting fed up with it. They’ve been there for nine years now and they want the herd moved in the short term, come positive or negative. So given these other options that the Minister has presented with looking at the long-term viability of sustaining the program versus short-term results, is the Minister going to make a commitment that the department will move the herd this summer, period? The community wants them moved and that’s that. I know if the tests do come back positive they’ll probably cull the whole herd, but that’s to be determined. I’m just trying to get some planning done before these tests come back positive or negative to make sure that we’ve got something going already. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, if the test results come back negative and everything is okay, then we have to go through the process to regain the disease-free status from Agriculture Canada, which is an important first step. If we’re going to move the herd, there are other issues we have to look at as the Member has indicated: the possibility of relocating on a temporary basis some animals to the University of Saskatchewan; the potential of entering into discussions with people from Providence about the Mackenzie sanctuary herd and possibly increasing their genetic diversity in addition to moving them. So I’ll commit to the Member that, yes, we want to make some clear final decisions here on this herd after June 22nd and we’ll make sure that the Member is fully engaged.

This is going to be an issue where there has to be some give and take on both sides. So there are other things that we are interested in, such as possibly moving part of the herd to other locales as well. So we need to have that discussion with the community, but we’re very, very aware of the issue. I have been there and we’ve had meetings. So I’ll commit to the Member that we’ll make those decisions and he’ll be fully involved with those. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Brief final supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the Minister for making that commitment to the community that, yes, they are going to look at the option of definitely moving them out of the community. I know that the community has some grave concerns with regard to the water quality and the bringing in of some mice from down south that are suddenly coming in with all the hay and the food that they are using to feed the bison, and some health concerns related to that. Also, just with respect to the health of the herd itself, the confines that they are in are pretty small in comparison to where the community would like to move them, which is a much bigger ranging area. The community wants a healthy herd themselves and they are looking at moving them to the Little BR site because it’s a bigger range and they’ll have more room to move around, and you wouldn’t get the downwind smell in the community all summer. With that, I’ll just have to wait for the results come June 22nd and see where the department is going to take it from there. Hopefully there will be some productive meetings that will go on in the next month with the community. If there is going to be a meeting in the community in the upcoming three weeks prior to June 22nd, when is that going to be scheduled? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 65-15(4): Relocation Of Hook Lake Buffalo Herd

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, there will be a meeting, but it will be after we get the test results back so we have something specific to talk about. One of the issues on the table is if there is no foreseeable future for the diseased bison issue and if it’s going to be unresolved, well then clearly one of the options I will have to consider, as the Minister, is do we just take the herd back and release it back into the wild and say it was a good exercise, it’s been nine years and there’s no progress as opposed to possibly just moving them to another location and keeping them in a corral and continuing to feed them and fenced in with no real viable plan in place. In fact, that’s a suggestion I heard from a number of the Member’s constituents last time we were there, is we were talking about what to do with the buffalo. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, obviously my questions are to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, and I’m following up on the question and answers we had previously. I have to say obviously the Minister was not listening to some of the questions that I have been posing, because I don’t think at any time did I ever claim to be an expert on this issue. In fact, Madam Speaker, I think that’s the beauty of our office in that it is our privilege to be generalists. It is our duty also to ask the experts for information in making decisions. I’m asking the Minister to have enough humility to go and ask the experts, who should know better. I would like to know, because I don’t think the Minister provided the answer, would the Minister ask his senior officials to go and talk to the educators in our city to find out what sort of services they have been getting, and then get the senior officials to talk to the people in Hay River to see what they have and what more they might need? Is that not a reasonable question, and I’m not claiming to be an expert. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, if the program is moved to Hay River, which is at this point a proposal, it has to go through the business planning process. If the program is moved, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment will work with the DEC and the DEA to make sure that the same level of support is provided by the department in whatever community the program moves to as is provided in Yellowknife. So we will make sure that the expert assistance that is required through the educational system is available wherever this program is offered. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. How can the Minister say that when he does not know what the requirements are, or does he? Yes or no.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Dent.

Further Return To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, I know that the Department of Education provides one teacher for the program and that the kids in the program work with the staff at the centre as well as the teacher to integrate back into the school system. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Minister Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’m afraid the Minister keeps displaying his lack of information and knowledge about this issue. I have to tell you that I’m told that there are at least two teachers employed with YK No. 2 who are involved with the centre, who directly are involved in teaching these kids. There are other people involved in this program. They are placed in all seven schools in the city. There are other people involved in educating these kids. So how can he just say, or is that proper budgeting process to say we’re going to do this? I don’t know what the details are, but whatever it is we’re going to match the service of Yellowknife to Hay River when he doesn’t know what’s out there. How can he say that? This is not responsible.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Dent.

Further Return To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am confident that we can support the same sort of program that we support now through Education, Culture and Employment in any community. As I said, for the students at the centre right now, Education, Culture and Employment funds one teacher. As well, the children are encouraged to get back into the regular school system. So obviously as they work into the school system they are going to be working with the teachers in the community, and that’s going to happen no matter where the program is offered. So what the department will do is make sure that if the program is moved, and there’s lots of lead time, Madam Speaker, we’ll make sure that those discussions that need to take place with whichever organization is charged with providing that support happens on a timely basis and that preparations are adequately made. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Dent. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s actually appalling that the Cabinet throws a bomb into this institution. In two years we’re moving this and that’s that, and we’re trying to get information. If anybody hasn’t gotten the point, my point is that all these questions we are asking and the answers to them are the most minimum information that the Cabinet should have had in making this decision. I think reasonable person would agree with that. I’d like to ask the Minister once again, not going by if and when and I’m confident and all that hullabaloo, could the Minister just ask his senior officials to ask the experts in the teaching field what the programs are? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Dent.

Further Return To Question 66-15(4): Consulting On The Territorial Treatment Centre Education Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will have the experts within our system work with the people wherever the program is offered to make sure that that assistance, whatever it is that is required that we normally offer, is provided; that the same thing that we’re doing here will be offered wherever the program is.