Debates of August 15, 2007 (day 10)

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister responsible for Human Resources, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, no. The version of the program that we are moving to will not be a customized version. That is what has led to the problems. The problems that we have had have been trying to move away from a program that was modified in ways that were…It is difficult to find words to explain why it was done that way because I am not sure. I really can’t explain why the modifications were made to the program in the first place, but I can tell you that moving to a plain Jane version…

---Laughter

No pun intended at all. Moving to a vanilla version, Mr. Speaker, has met significant difficulties. We don’t believe the problems are with the software, Mr. Speaker. The contractor who delivered the program to the government was specifically quizzed on whether or not they had the skills to deliver a working system. They told us they could move us from the compromised system we were using to a fully functional system. But it is evident that they have not been able to do that at this point.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Finally we are hearing some solutions. By the way, for the record, I want to say that Jane is not plain, because I have worked with her for four years. I can say that is a fact. Mr. Speaker, the fact is there is the problem right there. It has been changed and modified. Mr. Speaker, what are we going to do to bring back the integrity of this system to both the employees who work in Human Resources, who are probably getting backlashes every day on this problem, and also the fact the employees who have to know that the integrity of the personal information is out there and they are not 100 percent sure if it is confident or even confidently being handled? So the bottom line is, what is he doing to ensure and restore confidence back in the system that obviously has been changed, modified and who knows what else? It is good to hear we are going forward with something better. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since we discovered the issue, we went past the contractor that we had hired to implement the software. So we did buy the software from Oracle PeopleSoft. We actually hired another company to do the installation because Oracle PeopleSoft doesn’t usually do installations with the program. Their responsibility was to ensure that the proper tables and interfaces were in so that the program would work in our system and that we could migrate the information from the old version of the software to the new version. Since we ran into the problems, we are unable to get expedient resolution from the company that we had contracted with to deliver the software, we contacted Oracle. Oracle very quickly sent somebody to Yellowknife who has stayed here to ensure that we are able to get the program working in a manner which it should be. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, their responsibility is not the answer. Their problem is not the answer. Mr. Speaker, I want to hear the Minister say that it was his fault in the sense of…Boil it down to the fact that he knew about this months ago. Now we have chopped up a system and who knows what we have. Will the new system be tested to ensure that it works properly before we put it back on line and we put our employees’ personal information at risk once again? I can tell you for a fact, e-mails were floating around even earlier this week with personal information of various employees out there. So the fact is that it is still happening. When will it be fixed? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we ran a system in parallel before moving it to go live and it seemed to work when it was running in a test system. For some reason, when it moved into the production system, it didn’t work. I can’t answer why that happened. In fact, it seems we are having some trouble getting to that answer. Mr. Speaker, the issue that the Member refers to this week was not a software issue. That was a human issue. That sort of thing can’t be solved by new software. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, it is great that we are running a parallel system that is not doing anything correctly and we are running the actual program that we don’t have any confidence in but we are continuing to do that. So, Mr. Speaker, why are we bothering to continue to invest in a program that continually shows us bad results? I want to hear that now, because we are wasting everyone’s time and money. Why do we continue this? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 122-15(6): GNWT Human Resource Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure where the Member is getting his advice that the program is at fault. What I said was the manner in which the program was modified in the first place is what has caused this problem. Eight of 10 Canadian provinces use this. Another province is moving to PeopleSoft. One of the other territories uses this program, as well. So it is the program that is most widely used in Canada in terms of dealing with pay and benefits. The program itself is not the issue. The manner in which the program was changed previously and now trying to move to a non-modified program, one that is fully functional, has caused some problems.

Mr. Speaker, I am confident that, with the assistance of Oracle, we are going to get this situation resolved. I would like to point out that the last pay, for instance, did run pretty well directly. There were very few instances of problems with the last pay. The real problems we had were in the two July pays and we think that we resolved the problem. We haven’t got the full functionality of the program that we were trying for because of the modifications that were done previously. Thank you.

Perhaps if we had a plain Jane program with a plain Jane Minister running his department, we would work a little better. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Minister’s statement today, one of the problems that are still causing a great deal of strife for departments and for managers is the Absence Management module has now been shut off. This is summer holidays. This is when people wanted to input leave requests. This is when managers wanted to approve leave requests. This is when people needed to know what their leave totals were. If there was ever a time that we needed this information, it was now, but, as a solution -- temporary, I am sure -- the Absence Management module has been turned off for the foreseeable future. I would like to ask the Minister how is the leave for employees being managed if not through this software? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Human Resources, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Absence Management was a brand new module that we have not used in the past. So when we turn that off, then leave is being handled in the same way that it has been up until the new software was installed. So it is the same process as was used prior to July 3. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

I would like the Minister to assure us, and I don’t know what I can really stake on that assurance because I stood in this House and told the Minister that we had a problem about this previously. He categorically denied that that problem existed. He subsequently found out it did exist and now I am asking for those assurances again anyway. I would like to ask the Minister what assurances can he provide to us that now, going forward, we have a system that works and is not going to see managers and staff spending inordinate amounts of time trying to sort this out? Is he confident now today that we have a system in place that is functioning properly? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not confident that we have that system in place today, but I am confident that, with the assistance of the software manufacturer, who now has a representative here in Yellowknife working with us, that we will get to that very quickly.

As I said, we managed to get the last pay out without any significant issue and I am confident that that demonstrates that we are on the road to getting there. Whether or not we will ever be able to implement the Absence Management module, I don’t know. We were hoping to, because it would improve the functionality of the system; but even if we can’t, the system would have the same level of functionality that it had prior to July 3rd when we tried to bring that module on line.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have to assume that the Government of the Northwest Territories is a pretty sophisticated client and we have spent, as I said, a very large amount of money on ensuring that we have a modern and efficient system in place. I would like to know what is the Minister doing to protect the financial interests of this government with respect to the purchase of this and all of the subsequent costs that have occurred by its failure to function properly? What is this Minister doing to, I suppose even assess what those costs are, and to protect this government from further expenditure? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have a significant dollar figure and outstanding invoices to the contractor who was to deliver the system in a working state to us and we are in the process of ensuring that we are satisfied that we have a working system before we would even consider paying those invoices. We are also tracking our extra costs. So we think that we have some protection and we will be working to ensure that we do our best to make sure that we are delivered a system for the price we were told we would get it for and protect the taxpayers. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I realize this is fairly late in the life of this government, but I would like to ask the Minister if he could undertake…I mean he will still be the Minister until a new Minister is sworn in. I would like to definitely come up with some kind of report that would put in chronological order where we went wrong, to avoid something like this happening again. It’s fine to keep saying, well, this is a problem, this is a problem, this is a problem. I would like to see some kind of a constructive debrief report come out of all this activity that would be useful, hopefully, as we go forward in the future. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 123-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d be pleased to ensure that we do that kind of report and I will share that with the Members opposite. I’d also be pleased to ensure a regular report through the life of this Assembly to Members on progress in implementing the new system. I can tell you that the one piece of advice I will give the new government is don’t customize software.

---Laughter

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the Premier’s sessional statement today he indicated how his government is working on new critical infrastructure projects throughout the territory, including the all-season road to the Arctic Ocean. As I indicated in my Member’s statement today, Mr. Speaker, there’s been a lot of discussions with the Premier between the mayor, the deputy mayor and myself with regards to accessing funds up to $50 million for access to the road to source 177 from Tuk. I’d like to ask the Premier at this time, has he heard anything from the federal government on how this money can be spent? If so, will that include allocating $50 million to source 177? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Return To Question 124-15(6): Tuktoyaktuk Gravel Source Road Access

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m told that we have now received a framework for how the infrastructure money will be spent. The Department of Justice are reviewing that now. So I expect we should be proceeding quickly on this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Pokiak.

Supplementary To Question 124-15(6): Tuktoyaktuk Gravel Source Road Access

Thank you. Yes, it’s been since February 2007 and we’re now in August, like I say right now. It’s been a long time to finally find out how that money can actually be spent, the $25 million infrastructure fund. I’d just like to ask the Premier I guess, he indicated that it should be shortly, once the Department of Justice reviews that, so can he give an indication to this House on whether they will expend that money between now and October? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 124-15(6): Tuktoyaktuk Gravel Source Road Access

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First let me clarify, we don’t have any dollars yet. What we have is a framework that sets out some of the guidelines to how the money will be spent. Assuming that there are no difficulties with the framework, then I would think that this will move fairly quickly. The federal government will be getting back to business soon from their summer recess. So I expect early this fall, but we have no way of knowing how fast they will work. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Pokiak.

Supplementary To Question 124-15(6): Tuktoyaktuk Gravel Source Road Access

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that there is a framework in place here now, but I think this government is spending a lot of money in other places outside of the Beaufort-Delta. I would like to advise the Premier and the Minister that any considerations for giving to the Beaufort-Delta in terms of capital infrastructure funding and I encourage him because he’s the funding source of access road to source 177. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 124-15(6): Tuktoyaktuk Gravel Source Road Access

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member is right; we’ve had a lot of meetings about this and I’m sure it's frustrating for people who attended meetings with myself with the Inuvialuit president, with the former Minister of DIAND, and in fact I think this was even discussed with the Prime Minister when he was here last week. Mr. Speaker, we will do everything we can, but I would expect that because this is a new expenditure, that this is something that would have to now go to the next government, but we will make that recommendation that they give it the same attention we have and make the commitment once the money is received. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also jump on this PeopleSoft issue and I have some questions to Minister Dent. Mr. Speaker, this PeopleSoft issue has been around for a long time, for the entire eight years, and as far as I know it’s an internal personnel management software program, but the reputation for this program has grown to such a level that when I had a neighbourhood coffee meeting recently, even the people who have nothing to do with government, or they’re not employees of government, couldn’t stop talking about this PeopleSoft problem. Mr. Speaker, there are private businesspeople and doctors and health care professionals and they have asked me and begged me to say that until this is all ironed out, that this not be implemented for the doctors and other professionals working at the Stanton Hospital because the reputation is that lots of managers are spending their entire time because they’re not even asking the staff to do it anymore and they’re spending time putting the stuff in. So until it’s all ironed out, could I get the commitment from the Minister that no one else will be added on? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister responsible for Human Resources, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 125-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, if they’re being paid now, they’re already on the system. So the system is actually delivering their cheques to them as we speak. What we’re talking about here is upgrading the software and we can’t go back to the old software because the old software is not being supported anymore. So we can’t get the new tax tables or if the system doesn’t work, it’s not being supported. So the requirement is to move to a new system. So either its upgrade PeopleSoft or find entirely new software in order to get people paid. The issue that has been has been the Absence Management module that’s given us the most problems. The rest of the system appears to be working as it should. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 125-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I don’t think I’m suggesting that government comes up and adapt a whole new software program to address this. I’m talking about the network of people who are required to actually sit in front of the computer and enter these numbers or whatever they have to do to put the process in place and data in place to get the software to do whatever it has to do. A lot of people who are not having to do that right now don’t want to experience the kind of stories they are hearing from other people who are having to spend a lot of time dealing with it. So until these are ironed out, I understand you still have to use the same program, but can we limit the number of people or the duties of people having to deal with the software program until it's ironed out? I hope I’m clear on that question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 125-15(6): GNWT Human Resources Management System

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There will be no changes. The doctors should see no changes from what they were seeing before July 3rd and how the system operates. In fact, all employees should see the same system as what we had in place pretty well before July 3rd. Thank you.