Debates of August 16, 2007 (day 11)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to thank the Minister and, again, thanks for the increase. I think there is a lot of students out there in the Northwest Territories who will welcome the new ceiling. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. At this time, I would like to recognize Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the Minister indicated earlier, this did not go through a public hearing process because all the Members, not only the Social Programs committee, but AOC, all 11 Members on this side of the floor felt this had to be done and it had to be done quickly. I know there is at least one constituent of mine who is sitting there waiting to see if this is going to go through. But I know there are lots of other students who would benefit from having more room to borrow. So I just want to thank the Minister and the government for moving quickly on this and the Members for supporting it. I also want to state that having been a student myself, the SFA program in the North compares better than anything else in the country and it was back then when I was going to school and I believe it continues to be. I think we should celebrate what’s good. I think we have to do our best to make sure it stays that way.

I also want to support what the Member from Kam Lake stated. The Minister has already agreed that this needs to constantly be reviewed so we can do the best we can to encourage and make it easier for our people to go and get the education that they would like that would be not only good for them but good for the economy we have here and address some of the shortages in the labour situation we have here. I just wanted to add my support for that.

I would just like to ask a question of clarification here. We aren’t talking about grants. Some people are eligible for grants if they meet the criteria, but this is to increase the maximum limits of the repayable loan. We have what’s called remissible loans where those who qualify could ask for remission when they come back. Is this loan a remissible loan for those who qualify or is that something separate?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The remissible loan program is something separate from the repayable loan program.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

So this is an amount of money that is available for someone to tap into after they have exhausted if they are eligible for grants and remissible loans. This is on top of the money already available?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That’s correct. It’s not necessarily something that follows on after a student has used up all of their 12 semesters if they qualify for 12 semesters of remissible funding. There are many students who access needs assessed funding. This funding is all needs assessed. You have to apply for the money and demonstrate a need for it, but that can be available to you beginning in the first semester if you have a need for the extra funding. So this money is over and above the basic grant and the remissible loans, yes.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. To clarify further on that, it’s possible for someone who went to school for their entire grade school, 1 to 12, and they get their grant and remissible loan to do a university degree and then they decide they want to do further graduate studies or professional degrees, they can start tapping into this money up to $47,000?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, this money could be available for use after a student has gone through the first 12 or eight or whatever semesters they qualify for. But as I said, it could also be available to students who may be single parents that may have higher costs. So it’s available right off the bat, if necessary, to those who have needs.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Can I just get information on what the criteria requirements are? It’s needs-based, but is it only on income and the need for money? Say if someone, what Mr. Ramsay was talking about, was going to law school, I know when I went to law school in ’94, when I started, my tuition fee was like $1500, which probably nobody could believe now. When I was finishing three years later, it was $5,000. The last I heard it was about $12,000 a year to go to school. Could somebody borrow the entire $12,000 to pay for that even if they couldn’t prove that they were really, really poor but having that $12,000 would help them with their loan? Do you know what I mean? Not really, really poor, but all students are poor because when you go to school you can’t have much income. I guess what I am saying is the situation is so different for every student depending on what program they are taking, whether they have children or not. Some people have no children but they have had some money saved and they may have money in the bank, but their need for money is a lot higher because of the fact that they are going into a program that is costing more money than other programs, for example. So can you just apply to the SFA program and say I would really like to tap into the $60,000 to pay for the three years of my tuition at law school, med school, engineering school or any school you want to go to, even if you have some money and you have it stored away in your bank account?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I say, it’s an application-based fund. So a student can fill out an application form and from that application form, it will be determined if they qualify for some of this repayable loan funding. The sort of factors that come into play are children and childcare costs, the cost of a program that is being taken and the Member talked about whether there is any money in the bank. There is an assumption with the SFA program that you will earn some money during the summer break. So that sort of expectation is factored into the calculations. It is a formula that is determined by the responses on the application form and that sets out how much money is available then to people from this fund.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.

One question, Mr. Chairman. The bill is a good bill. I do support it. I don’t think they call them starving students for nothing, Mr. Chair. This is good news and I applaud the Minister for listening to the people and doing some good work here.

We increased the loans for these students to pursue an education to look for a career they can work on and at the same time, they have to repay these loans. Are we doing well in that area? If we increase the loans, are we going to do a good job in terms of collecting these loans or are we going to be in a position where these loans are being looked at by the students in terms of repaying them? Are we going to starve them to get the money back? I guess it’s more of a question I have for my people in the Sahtu.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We do fairly well on collecting on debts. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment doesn’t directly follow up with people who are having trouble making their payments. We hand them over to FMBS and that’s the collection agency within government. So I can’t speak to how well they resolve that. Judging from what we see in the write-off of debts bills, I don’t think we are doing too badly, given the amount of money we are lending to students. We are always going to wind up with people who run into economic trouble and because of that, we are going to have some debts that go bad. But in general, this has proven to be a very worthwhile investment in northerners and in getting northerners educated. So we think it’s a worthwhile investment.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya. I have Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When the Minister talks about it being a good investment, I wouldn’t argue that in any way. Has the department done any investment on their own to find out how long we keep some of these people that we provide student loans to? The reason I ask that is because I think it’s fabulous to work at bringing everyone’s education up and that works for society as a whole. I am just curious; once somebody takes out a student loan, they get their schooling paid for and they come back and get their years remissed, if it’s three or four years, do they say see you later? Do we ever follow up about what type of investment or as they say, ROI, in industry? What type of longevity do we get out of students who we continue to offer one of the best student loan programs in the country if not the best?

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The best indicator we have on immediate returns is the number of students who are achieving remissions on their loans and that is almost all of them. So we know that most students come back in the first instance to qualify for remission and do stay in the Territories through the remission of their loans.

We do also an occasional survey to try to follow up with people who have received funding to attend post-secondary institutions. While I don’t have those numbers with me, we have tabled in the past the post-secondary indicator book and that is available on our website, which does provide follow-up information. So we do regular surveys of students to see how many are still in the North.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t say that as a criticism of the program. I would just like to see us get a return on the program. If we are going to educate northerners, I certainly would like to see them…We are investing in folks to come back and we are investing in the right people. I know the last couple of years I have had people ask about programs when they go into their masters, and the Minister provided them with good information and opportunities to go forward and families were very grateful. So when you see an increase in the program, that is going to be an extremely good positive spin-off. I would just like to see that we continue the momentum and synergy so the North as a whole sees a benefit. Do people in general, once their loan is remissed, do they leave or are they staying? It’s my experience that when you educate someone up here, whether they are born here or have been educated here, they seem to have a strong tendency coming back home and raising families. No real question, Mr. Chairman, just an observation. All the kids, young students, young and old who have taken advantage of this program, I am just curious on where they have ended up in the sense of that.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very pleased to see this initiative coming forward and to give it my support. As a matter of fact, I may be in a position in the next little while to experience its benefits. I am very happy to see that when we do this, it’s something that works for a lot of people. I think this is one of the, unfortunately, little known secrets and advantages of living in the Northwest Territories and raising a family. Whenever I get the chance, I promote this as an enormous benefit that we have that makes us almost unique in Canada. So it is one worth defending, promoting and enhancing whenever we get the chance to and I am happy to see it.

Today I have just one question. It applies to the coming into force of this. Will this be something that students enrolling in the coming school year be able to take advantage of or is this going to be dependent on the next budget cycle, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, we’ve been quietly letting people know that the expectation of this will be in place this year and once the bill is passed, we’ll make sure it is well publicized amongst students so there is that awareness. There were some students who were running up against that $47,000 limit and we have been letting them know it was in the works and it will be in effect this year.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list is Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank committee’s indulgence here. I am not on the Social Programs committee and I don’t get to talk about SFA too often, so I will take my opportunity now. I know the government is on its last legs. There are a couple of weeks left. I just want to get some ideas out there. While we are talking about SFA and ideas, one of the problems that we’ve seen over and over again is the improvement in retention of health care professionals, especially in the small communities and trying to get nurses in the small communities, trying to get teachers in the small communities. One of the ideas that merits some consideration by the department is taking a look at bringing people in here and paying off their student loans while they are here. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper to do that than to fly nurses in from Honduras or Newfoundland, all these locum nurses. You know what? When we get some of these nurses and teachers on the ground in the Northwest Territories, some of them might actually want to stay here and make their home here. They are young people; they will raise their families here. So I think that’s something that merits some consideration by the department. You can include the Department of Health in that if you are going to examine how that would work. I think it would be much more cost-effective to take a look at paying off…Like I said, tuition fees are going up. Kids are coming out of university now with $45,000 or $50,000 in debt with Canada student loans or provincial student loans, in some cases. If the government of the Northwest Territories said why don’t you come work for us and we will pay off your student loan while you are here, give us five years or six years, it would be much more cost-effective, I think, and merit some consideration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The first item that the Member was talking about in terms of attracting people to smaller communities, we already provide remission at a higher rate to nurses who have gone through the program here and are willing to work in our small communities. So we recognize the student financial assistance and remission rates can play a role in recruitment and have taken that to heart and are doing that.

In terms of Education, Culture and Employment remissing loans to a different government, that would be outside of our mandate. But I take the Member’s point that it may be something that the government should consider in terms of a recruitment, so I would be happy to have the Minister of Human Resources talk to the Minister of Health and Social Services to see whether or not they would be prepared to consider such an approach.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ramsay.

Clause by clause.

Thank you. No further general comments. We’ll be going clause by clause.

Agreed.

Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act, clause 1.

Agreed.

Clause 2.

Agreed.

Bill as a whole?

Agreed.

Does committee agree that Bill 19 is ready for third reading?

Agreed.

Bill 19 is now ready for third reading. At this time, I would like to thank the Minister and his staff and request the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witnesses out. Thank you.

At this time, what is the wish of committee? Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move we report progress. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

There is a motion on the floor. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I shall rise to report progress. Thank you.