Debates of August 20, 2007 (day 13)

Thank you. Does the committee agree that Bill 18 is ready for third reading, as amended?

Agreed.

Thank you. Bill 18 is now ready for third reading, as amended. Thank you, committee. Thank you, Minister Roland. Thank you, Mr. Kalgutkar and Mr. Cleveland. Thank you, committee.

We’ll keep rolling here. We’re on Bill 15, the Liquor Act. For that I’d like to ask Minister Roland, the Minister responsible for Bill 15, to please introduce the bill. Minister Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to present Bill 15, Liquor Act. This bill is a complete rewrite of our existing act and represents the first major revision since 1983.

---Applause

The revised Liquor Act will provide a liquor system that is more effective, balanced and consistent with the priorities of NWT residents. It provides strong legislation that protects youth, controls the illegal sale of liquor, and provides for safer conditions in licensed premises. Bill 15 represents the culmination of more than three years of work that included a review of the current Liquor Act, a comparative analysis of other provincial and territorial legislation, and consultations with NWT residents about their views on changing liquor legislation.

In 2005, the Department of Finance undertook an extensive consultation process. A detailed discussion paper was circulated that summarized the main issues and provided a series of questions to stimulate debate. Meetings were held in nine communities to solicit the views of NWT residents. These communities were chosen to represent a cross-section of liquor access and regulation circumstances based on size, presence of liquor stores and/or licensed establishments, and liquor status. In addition, on the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight, funding was provided so that outlying communities were able to send two representatives to attend the nearest session.

Early in 2006, Improving Liquor Legislation in the NWT, Final Report of the 2005 Liquor Act Review was released. This report included 38 recommendations for change, most of which are reflected in this bill.

One of the main conclusions of the report was NWT residents, while largely supportive of the existing governance structure of the liquor system, also wanted to see more control at the community level. Consequently, the bill retains the existing shared governance responsibility between the Minister and the Liquor Licensing Board, and includes provisions to devolve more control over liquor to communities.

Bill 15 does not contain specific legislative or regulatory provisions regarding addictions or treatment. Social responsibility and an attitude toward alcohol cannot be legislated. Each individual is responsible for his or her own actions.

We are all aware of the effect that alcohol has on our communities and residents, as Members indicated during our debate in May about the need to denormalize alcohol abuse in our communities. This bill supports GNWT policies and programs to address a number of elements of social responsibility in the liquor system. For example, the NWT Liquor Commission participates in numerous inter-jurisdictional initiatives to promote the responsible use of alcohol and has a program to place healthy message labels on all liquor bottles sold in the NWT.

Bill 15 includes a number of provisions that were suggested by the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight during committee review of the bill, including the inspection of liquor stores by liquor inspectors, stronger inspection tools for sales to minors, and higher maximum penalties for store operators who sell to minors and for minors who use false ID to purchase liquor. I would like to thank committee members for their very valuable input.

The bill proposes a number of major areas of change to the Liquor Act:

The bill provides strong legislation that protects youth, controls the illegal sale of liquor, and provides for safer conditions in licensed establishments. A number of measures are included to prevent minors from accessing liquor, including stiffer fines for minors using false or altered ID to attempt to purchase liquor;

It provides for a much clearer distinction between the adjudicative, enforcement and governance functions of the liquor control system. Consistent with standard practice, all regulation-making powers will rest with the Commissioner on the recommendation of the Minister;

It strengthens the control that communities have on liquor within their boundaries. Communities will be able to directly request the Minister to conduct a plebiscite to determine which type of restriction or prohibition system will apply within their municipal boundaries, without having to first provide a petition from residents. The threshold for approving a question on a plebiscite is being reduced from 60 percent to 50 percent plus one, which is more democratic. The revised act would recognize the ability of communities operating under self-government agreements and exercising jurisdiction in this area, to pass their own bylaws with regard to liquor control;

It clarifies who is able to purchase, consume, sell and possess liquor;

It strengthens the penalties for bootlegging, increasing the deterrents to this illegal activity, particularly bootlegging to minors. As a further deterrent, a new inspection regime is being introduced to provide for improved monitoring of liquor stores using inspectors, similar to the regime currently in place for monitoring licensed premises;

It improves the operation of licensed premises by better protecting youth, improving customer safety and making the rules for licence holders more internally consistent and clear. It recognizes that intoxication can occur from substances other than beverage alcohol and drugs, and provides a more streamlined approach to dealing with the issue of intoxication in licensed premises; and, finally,

Finally, Bill 15 will result in increased administrative simplicity for both licensees and liquor administration. For example, the number of license classes is being reduced from the current 12 to four.

That concludes my opening remarks. I would be pleased to answer any questions Members may have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, Minister Roland. I’d now like to ask Mr. Lafferty, the chairman of the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight, which reviewed the bill, to make committee's comments on the bill. Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight conducted public hearings on Bill 15, the Liquor Act between June 6 and June 15, 2007. The committee split into northern and southern groups to seek input from as many communities as possible within this time frame. Meetings took place in Inuvik, Tsiigehtchic, Tulita, Gameti, Behchoko, Yellowknife, Fort Simpson, Jean Marie River, Hay River and Fort Smith. In addition, the committee allowed for written submissions until July 13, 2007. The clause-by-clause review of the bill was held on August 14, 2007. The committee would like to thank all witnesses for their presentations during these meetings and the Minister of Finance and his staff for presenting the bill.

Bill 15, if passed, will replace the existing Liquor Act dealing with the sale, importation, manufacture and distribution of liquor in the Northwest Territories. The bill enhances community control over liquor, makes a number of administrative improvements and strengthens the penalties for offences, particularly for bootlegging.

While a majority of people were generally supportive of the proposed bill, in particular of the increased community options and harsher punishments for bootleggers, presenters also made it very clear that the Liquor Act does not address the problems related to alcohol abuse and addiction. Many residents, community leaders, elders and stakeholders expressed their concerns recalling accidental deaths, suicides and abuse. They also pointed out that addictions and substance abuse includes gambling, drugs and other intoxicating substances. Many residents of small communities linked the availability of jobs in the resource development sector and higher disposable incomes to an increase of alcohol and substance abuse as well as family violence and elder abuse. Others expressed their worries about the impacts of alcohol, especially on the future of their children and youth, the younger generation.

Many presenters in small communities expressed concerns regarding the difficulty of controlling liquor coming into the community. In communities like Jean Marie River, Gameti or Tulita, residents buy their liquor from liquor stores in nearby municipalities or by phone order. Presenters generally felt that they had little power to control types and quantities of liquor sold to residents of their communities. They also stated that the regional impact of liquor stores is not sufficiently considered.

Committee members also heard in the smaller communities that if restrictions or a prohibition are in place, liquor stores should have mechanisms for verification and tracking of shipments of phone and other orders.

Members share the concerns raised regarding the availability of high percentage liquor in combination with binge drinking. People saw an increasing trend of this drinking pattern in young people and felt that high alcoholic beverages are still too easily available.

In August 2005, a ministerial directive was issued listing products with an alcohol content of 50 percent or more and limiting the sale “to one bottle per person at any time." Members were cautiously optimistic that the abuse, overuse and availability of overproof and other high alcohol products would be reduced. After considering the communities’ input, the committee would like to encourage the Minister to look into this matter and report back on whether further restrictions would be advisable.

Members were pleased to see that all communities welcomed the lower threshold for a plebiscite on restrictions or prohibition, making the process more democratic. Overall, the visited communities and municipalities expressed support for more community control on liquor and provisions that will allow for adaptations to their specific needs.

However, particularly in smaller communities, leaders were concerned that despite more powers and tougher laws, not enough is being done to enforce existing restrictions and rules. In several places, people also expressed their discomfort in bringing complaints or evidence regarding bootlegging to the police’s attention, as this would impact internal community relationships. However, as was discussed in our meeting in Tulita, without the cooperation of community members in bringing forward information to the police, enforcement will not be possible.

For communities without permanent RCMP presence, concerns about enforcement were stronger and more prevalent. For example in Jean Marie River, Ms. Tammy Neal, the band manager of the Tthedzeh K’edeli First Nation, put her doubts in the following statement, “We can put a ration on the community, we can make rules and committees and everything, but how do we enforce it? We can’t enforce it. There’s no way to enforce it.”

Community leaders also expressed concerns that the restrictions on transportation of liquor are not sufficiently enforced, particularly in those communities without permanent RCMP presence. People generally welcomed the new provisions for regulations that would limit the amount of liquor that can be transported without a permit. They are, however, worried that they will have no influence on prescribing these limits or on enforcing their implementation.

Because smaller communities have no influence on the sale of liquor in municipalities with liquor stores and the shipping and transportation after the purchase, many felt helpless with regards to community restrictions. This sense of powerlessness is growing with the perceived lack of enforcement.

Despite these concerns, a majority of people welcomed the direction of the bill of increasing fines and introducing potential jail sentences for bootlegging offences.

Mr. Chair, at this time, I would like to pass it on to Mr. Villeneuve to continue with the report. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Mahsi, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Villeneuve.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, while some presenters felt penalties should be increased further and minimum fines be introduced, others in Fort Smith and Fort Simpson suggested that by extending off-sale, premise and liquor store hours, bootlegging would become less attractive and lucrative. For example a Tsiigehtchic resident suggested mandatory jail time as a solution while a Fort Smith town councillor commented, “I think when it comes to bootlegging, what you want to do there is try to defer that activity from happening. … But by restricting hours and restricting the amount of alcohol that’s coming out of your licensed premises, what you’re really doing is giving a bootlegger that much ammunition now.”

The band manager of the Tthedzeh K’edeli First Nation in Jean Marie River also pointed to what she considered inconsistencies in the proposed fine structures, “With regards to the penalty being $10,000 for supplying a minor, or up to $10,000, where we’re trying to preach to our children and stop the cycles of alcohol abuse, drugs and all this. I think the penalty for supplying a minor should be higher than it is for supplying an adult…”

The committee agreed with the suggestion that selling liquor to minors is a more serious offence and should carry higher penalties. During the clause-by-clause review, the committee and Minister agreed to amendments to double the maximum fines for selling to minors by vendors and licensed premise owners.

The committee also passed a motion to amend the bill to double maximum fines for bootlegging that involves selling to a minor, to add minimum fines for bootlegging including higher minimum fines for bootlegging to minors and to provide that where a judge makes a probation order, the probation order must prohibit the possession and consumption of alcohol. The Minister did not concur with this motion.

Preventing minors from accessing liquor and protecting children and youth to provide them with a healthy start into their future were issues brought forward in all communities. For example, Mr. Eddie Chocolate, a Gameti councillor, expressed his fears and hopes, “As it is, this abuse takes away life from our youth. … We should devote a lot of time and discussion on this. … There is the sale of alcohol and drugs in the community and that’s something that we all need to resolve together.”

While some presenters pleaded for an increase of the legal drinking age to 21, others believed that the legal drinking age should be lowered to 18 or remain as is, arguing it would teach young people more responsible behaviour at an earlier age. The committee also discussed the question with the Minister and agrees with the government’s decision to keep the legal age at 19 as the most appropriate at this time.

In Yellowknife, Ms. Sylvia Siemens suggested that the mandate of the enforcement officers would need to include compliance monitoring of liquor stores. The Department of Finance currently relies on its contracts with vendors to ensure compliance. This has proved insufficient to avoid liquor sales to minors. As Ms. Siemens pointed out during her presentation, “We cannot expect a business that profits from the sale of alcohol to be self-regulating. The Tobacco Act recognizes that. … to allow for inspectors to send in a young looking 17-year-old to purchase cigarettes. If they were not asked for identification, they had the teeth in the legislation to issue a fine. … We cannot purport to say this legislation protects youth until we address the issue that there is no legislation in place for independent monitoring and inspections of liquor store practices.”

Mr. Chair, I will pass this report on to the Member for Sahtu, Mr. Norman Yakeleya.

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Members supported the idea that in order to protect youth, the proposed Bill 15 should be compatible with the NWT Tobacco Control Act and its regulations where monitoring and enforcement are concerned. During the clause-by-clause review of the bill, committee and Minister agreed to amend Bill 15 to make compliance monitoring and enforcement of liquor stores part of the mandate of enforcement officers. This includes allowing for minors to purchase or attempt to purchase liquor for the purpose of “sting operations."

People commenting on the proposed act mostly welcomed the introduction of fines for minors who alter ID or use false ID to buy liquor at a store. However, many commented that the fines should be higher. Mrs. Lucy Villebrun from Fort Smith told us “that the fine of $200 is extremely lenient, … I’d like to see the maximum fines at $500 for the first offence and $1,000 thereafter.”

During the clause-by-clause review of the bill, an amendment was made to change the maximum fine for minors attempting to purchase liquor using false ID from $250 for a first offence and $500 for a second offence to $500 for all offences. This amendment also makes the bill consistent with the Tobacco Control Act.

Committee heard a presentation from one Yellowknife liquor storeowner, Mr. Perry Smith, who raised concerns about the cap of $6.5 million dollars within the liquor revolving fund and its potential impact on the ability of the Liquor Commission to maintain adequate stock. After making inquiries, the committee understands that previous issues with inventory levels were due to operational difficulties and did not occur as a result of the cap on the revolving fund. Furthermore, the committee notes that Bill 15 will provide the Liquor Commission with added flexibility in terms of transferring funds to the consolidated revenue fund and as such securing the sufficiency of the liquor revolving fund in the future.

Mr. Smith also expressed concerns with section 36, which could be interpreted to prevent the sale of liquor to customers in other jurisdictions such as Nunavut. During the clause-by-clause review, the committee and Minister agreed to an amendment to make it clear that the sale of liquor to other jurisdictions is permitted.

In Yellowknife, committee also heard a presentation from Mr. Telmo dos Santos suggesting that 25 percent of the revenues generated through liquor sales be allocated to a special fund dedicated to community prevention and treatment programs. While Members understand Mr. dos Santos’ concerns, committee also acknowledges that the GNWT already allocates more money for programs and services in these areas than is generated through liquor revenues. Committee notes that a more comprehensive approach is needed to break the circle of alcohol abuse and to address addictions in the NWT.

Section 101 of the bill, as introduced, states that no person should be in a bar or other licensed premise if they know that a child under the age of eight they are responsible for is not in the care of a competent person. Members suggested increasing the minimum age from eight to 11 for leaving children unattended while entering or staying at a licensed premise. The committee and the Minister agreed to make this amendment to Bill 15.

In several communities, participants were concerned about the implications of the new “bring your own wine” provision. They felt, for example, that this would encourage drunk driving, exposure to alcohol and transportation of opened liquor. The committee understands that the intent of these provisions is to take the pressure off small establishments to stock wine, which can be very expensive for them. Only establishments that are licensed will be able to operate as “bring your owns,” and they will have to apply for that as a condition of their licence. There will be limits of the amount of wine that people can bring. As this provision is not well understood, the committee encourages the government to ensure it is explained in its public communications on the implementation of this act.

In addition to the amendments already identified, the committee and Minister agreed to three amendments of minor, non-substantive nature during the clause-by-clause review.

Mr. Chair, at this time, I would like to turn the report over to Ms. Lee.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Overall the committee supports Bill 15. We believe it achieves an appropriate balance between personal, community and territorial responsibility.

The committee did, however, note that many critical provisions that will determine the success of the new Liquor Act will be placed in regulations. These provisions include maximum quantities that may be transported by individuals who are not licence or permit holders, the types and brands of liquor to be kept for sale in liquor stores, the operation of liquor stores, rules and procedures regarding plebiscites, and the powers and duties of inspectors.

Much of the strength of the act will depend on clear and implementable regulations that address the concerns that were raised during public consultations. To ensure successful implementation, committee urges the government to continue its consultations during the development phase of the regulations.

While Bill 15 is a large step forward in modernizing our liquor legislation, it will need to be complemented by further initiatives addressing addictions, treatment and prevention, making liquor less attractive to young people, and leading to a future where each person who chooses to drink will use alcohol responsibly.

As Mr. Sean Whelly, a Fort Simpson resident, said, “…if you want to address the issue of drinking in the North, why don’t you get to the root causes of alcoholism instead of trying to tackle through legislation what comes at the end here? Let’s fund alcohol programs; let’s reach out to the kids and make sure that they know that there’s other things besides alcohol.”

Last May this House passed a motion calling for the denormalization of alcohol abuse. As we discussed at that time, only certain aspects of liquor can be controlled through legislation. Liquor laws must be complemented by a multi-faceted approach combining prevention, treatment and enforcement to deal with the individual and societal consequences of alcohol and substance abuse.

The committee recognizes that the Liquor Act itself cannot address all social issues around alcohol and alcohol abuse in the Northwest Territories. However, the committee believes that early in its life, the 16th Legislative Assembly must make prevention a priority, and task the social envelope Ministers to come up with a coordinated approach to create a campaign for public education and denormalization, including incremental budget targets for the use of prevention strategies and programs.

Committee reminds the government that there is no lead department with the mandate to manage a government-wide campaign against alcohol abuse. There are at least four different departments with some function in the administration of liquor and handling its multi-million dollar consequences: Finance, Health, Justice and Education. Committee has seen no evidence of any long-range, long-term collaborative alcohol programming among them.

Collectively, the governments and the Legislatures past and present have failed to look beyond their own spheres of responsibility and address in a unified way this single, most devastating impact on our society and our future generations.

The GNWT will not be able, on its own, to turn around patterns of abuse that are now generations old. The NWT’s government and Legislature should be the catalysts to marshal the support, and mobilize the resources, of all community and aboriginal governments and community leaders against alcohol abuse.

This concludes the committee’s opening comments on Bill 15. Individual Members may have questions and comments as we proceed.

Following the clause-by-clause review, a motion was carried to report Bill 15, Liquor Act, as amended, as ready for consideration in Committee of the Whole.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. What is the wish of committee? Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. I move we report progress. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Motion is in order. It's not debatable. All those in favour? Opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

I'll now rise and report progress.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No, 2, 2007-2008, and Bill 15, Liquor Act, and would like to report that Bill 18 is ready for third reading, as amended. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The motion is on the floor. Do we have a seconder? The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. McLeod. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, that Bill 9, Write-off of Debts Act, 2007-2008, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The motion is on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that Bill 10, Write-off of Debts Act, 2007-2008, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The motion is on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Weledeh, that Bill 17, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 2006-2007, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The motion is on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of the Accountability and Oversight committee at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow.

Orders of the day for Tuesday, August 21, 2007, at 1:30 p.m.:

Prayer

Ministers' Statements

Members' Statements

Returns to Oral Questions

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Acknowledgements

Oral Questions

Written Questions

Returns to Written Questions

Replies to Opening Address

Petitions

Reports of Standing and Special Committees

Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

Tabling of Documents

Notices of Motion

Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills

Motions

First Reading of Bills

Second Reading of Bills

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Bill 6, Workers’ Compensation Act

- Bill 7, Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act

- Bill 15, Liquor Act

- Committee Report 4-15(6), Report on Community

Consultations on Proposed Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Legislation

Report of Committee of the Whole

Third Reading of Bills

- Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No, 2,

2007-2008

23.

Orders of the Day

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until Tuesday, August 21, 2007, at 1:30 p.m.

---ADJOURNMENT

The House adjourned at 18:59 p.m.