Debates of August 22, 2007 (day 15)

Agreed.

Clause 8.

Agreed.

Clause 9.

Agreed.

Clause 10.

Agreed.

Clause 11.

Agreed.

Clause 12.

Agreed.

Clause 13.

Agreed.

Clause 14.

Agreed.

Clause 15.

Agreed.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that clause 16 of Bill 7 be amended by adding the following after subclause (7):

(8) Notwithstanding section 15, an application by a resident to vary a community safety order stays the operation of the order unless the court directs otherwise.

Thank you, Minister Bell. We will just wait for that motion to be circulated. The motion is in order. To the motion. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. We will circulate your motion.

All right, committee. Under the rules of the Legislative Assembly, Rule 54 states, "A motion to refer a bill, resolution or question to Committee of the Whole or to a standing or special committee shall take precedence over amendments to the bill, resolution or question." Ms. Lee’s motion is, therefore, in order. To the motion. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We, as a committee, have filed a very extensive report on this bill in the House a couple of days back. It is as a result of a quite extensive public hearing process. We appreciate the Minister bringing forward a number of amendments that he feels would address some of the issues that were raised in the report. However, Madam Chair, I need to state, as committee chair and as a member, that there were a number of issues that were raised in the report that would not be, in our opinion, able to be addressed by way of amendments. So, for that reason, and specific to the motion that the Minister just made, we, as committee, have not had a chance to review that.

We are aware, as a consensus government here, that all of the legislation that we have passed already and some of the really large ones that we passed in this Assembly and this very session, the Workers’ Compensation Act, the Liquor Act, there were a number of amendments that went through. There were dozens and dozens of them, and all of them took a lot of time to study what the motions meant, what the amendment meant and what effect that it would have and how it would address the issues that are before us. Simply, we have not had a chance to do that. Referring this bill back to the committee is not to say that we do not support the spirit of the bill or the intent of the bill or the cause or wanting to do something to address some of the serious drug issues and the bootlegging going on. Simply what this motion is trying to say is that this bill is not ready for third reading, that it needs more work. Members want to be able to do more work. We are aware of the fact that this House adjourns in two days, but the Standing Committee on Social Programs is willing to sit and meet and report for the benefit of the next Assembly all the issues that were brought to the committee through our public hearing process and also entertain five motions that the Minister has put forward to us.

I want to say, for the record, also, that the motions that the Minister is suggesting did not come to our attention until last week about an hour or two before we had our clause-by-clause meeting. I just want people to know that we just simply had not had the time to consider all of the motions that the Minister put forward. I want to stay on the technical side of this bill. I am going to leave it at that. I believe that other Members may want to add to their views on this particular motion. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to speak in favour of Ms. Lee’s motion to bring these new amendments and new ideas back through the committee process to the general public. Madam Chair, this bill is certainly one of the newer and I think bigger ideas that this Assembly has undertaken. Just on the surface of that, we should never be afraid of looking at new ideas and applying them as they can be appropriated here in the NWT. Universally, we saw a need. We appreciate the need in every one of our communities, big and small, for new ways to address the problems of addictions, bootlegging, drug dealing and other kinds of behaviour. Bringing in a new option and something that would allow communities to have more control over this kind of thing was conceptually very welcome. But the process under which that would happen, the mechanics as outlined in the bill, were found wanting in many areas. So, Madam Chair, as much as there is a need for this, the public, we found through our report, as Ms. Lee has referenced, is one of the most extensive, most detailed, objective and comprehensive reports that I have seen the committee do. It is a good piece of work. It proves that the public does not have confidence in the way this new law was being proposed. It wants to see something like it done, but we need to invest the time to correct misconceptions, to help get people better informed, to certainly amend and adjust some of the flaws that are contained in here. This Assembly and this Minister I think should be pleased with the amount of work that has been done on it, but it is not something that the public, the general people of the NWT I believe, are ready to accept and make work. Let’s understand that time, awareness, education, discussion and consultation are a very important part of law-making and having new laws land on their feet with the people they are intended to serve. We have not allowed enough of that to happen. I am reminded, Madam Chair, that this idea or new law was not originally on the agenda of the 15th Assembly when we came into office. It came in a very rapid and unexpected fashion about midway through our term I think at the expense of other legislation, Madam Chair. So it has been a difficult one for committee to adjust to as well.

I believe this is a good start. It is one that I am supportive of, but that we should have no hesitation to hand it over with a very strong recommendation to our successors in the 16th Assembly to finish a job that got a reasonably good start. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. Next I have Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I want to speak in favour of this motion to refer as well. In my 12 years in this Legislature, I have never seen a bill that has been so roundly and thoroughly criticized from so many points of the compass, at the community level, by professionals. It has been problematic for me since I first saw it. It needs work. I think we should take the time to do this right. It came very late onto the legislative agenda, I believe less than a year before the end of this term. I think it stepped over and queue-jumped over other pieces of legislation, in my opinion.

I think there are some serious flaws in this. It is very problematic setting up state police and all the issues about evidence and anonymous phone calls and all of these different issues that have been raised and they haven’t been addressed even by these latest amendments offered by the Minister. So I agree that this should be looked at in a more measured and thorough way to try to address it to see if it even deserves to see the light of day. But that should be done not in the dying minutes of this Assembly but by the new, fresh Assembly that is going to be coming into office here in the next six weeks. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next I have, to the motion, Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, will support this motion as put forward. This is one legislation that most of my colleagues always said that it came to us late in the game. As a member of the Social Programs committee, I think we did a very good job going into the communities to review the SCAN legislation. We heard what the people had to say. We are bringing it back. We have listened to them and we are doing what we heard. I think it is only right that the legislation be referred to the 16th Assembly. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for those brief comments, Mr. Pokiak. Next on my list to the motion is Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it has certainly has been a roller coaster ride lately, the last couple of days or a couple of weeks, on this particular SCAN legislation that is before us. I would just like to make it clear that there was an article in the newspaper; of course, don’t believe everything you read or hear. It is not the first time, of course, that the newspaper has done that, but I just want to state my piece here that this whole thing I would like to commend the Minister and his department and staff for bringing this forward.

I know where the Minister’s heart is. He wants to work for the people. He is listening to the elders about the drug abuse, the substance, the dealers in the communities. At the same time, Madam Chair, the motion that is in front of us is asking for a referral to the next government. I, not just myself, but other leaders around the table here, have been consulting with our leadership amongst ourselves. This has not been an easy ride. It is a very sensitive issue. We want something done in the communities. The elders are pressuring us to have something done in the community. That is why we have been working with Minister Bell on this particular issue. At the same time, Madam Chair, you may call it flaws within the legislation. Those are issues that we need to deal with. Those may be some challenges that we must tackle. But I have been told over and over by my leadership, by elders that I have spoken to, it is always a statement that has been brought forward. I am sure other regions know for a fact that elders have always told us don’t rush things, take your time, do it right and listen to your people, listen to the people of the North, listen to your people of the region.

There is a report here that highlights that, but I must state for the record that there are people out there that want this to go through as well; maybe through SCAN or a different model, but we must tackle the drug dealers and the bootleggers in the community. It is a huge issue. Every single one of us are dealing with it on an everyday basis. This, whether it is or not, we have to move on, Madam Chair, somehow. So after considerable consultation with my respected leaders, elders and community members, I was given direction to support referring this SCAN, Bill 7, to the next government, the 16th Assembly. I think we need to take it slow. We cannot push through legislation so fast. That is what I have been told. So I just want to pass that on. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. To the motion. Next I have Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, will be voting in favour of this motion we put forward. I commend the Minister and his department for bringing this forward. I believe they want to do the right thing. We want them to do the right thing. The whole of the Northwest Territories wants us to do the right thing. The right thing is to get these people off the streets and, as the bill says, make the neighbourhood safer. But at the same time, our committee was given this bill and we were asked to bring it out and listen to what people had to stay. I thought we did that.

It has been a tough couple of days because I hear now the bill might be going through even though people have told us that it has some flaws. There are a few amendments on the table, but I don’t think that is enough. I spoke to an elder in Inuvik this afternoon that I usually call on now and then for advice. I said, what do you think? I explained to her that this was a bill that the spirit, the principle is something that we all want to see. I said, but this was a bill that was brought in from down south. This wasn’t a bill like the Liquor Act that was written here by us, for us. It wasn’t. She said, well, I like the idea of the bill. But the fact that it was something that was taken from down south is not going to apply up here. With some changes, it may work. But it has to be tailored for the Northwest Territories. I spoke to another lady who knows about acts and practically read the whole thing. Her view was the same. I said, well, they proposed amendments. Do you think those will work? She said no. She said it has to be a complete rewrite, as far as I’m concerned.

We have people that we call on for advice, but eventually it comes down to us as MLAs making a decision. But we have to listen to that advice. We have to. We can’t come in here and then start ignoring advice after we get in here because, with two quick strokes of a pencil any one of us can be out of here that quick. If we don’t listen to them, then they will exercise that right and I will respect them for that. But we do have to listen to what people are telling us. Otherwise, why have a Social Programs committee take this on the road if we are not going to listen to them? People have long memories. You didn’t listen to us then. You won’t listen to us now.

The spirit of this bill is very good. We have heard from social agencies. Who more than social agencies want do deal with the issues of alcohol and drugs, because they are the people in the front line that have to live with this all of the time. They have to deal with these people. When they are telling us that this is a good bill, the spirit is good but it is flawed, we have to listen to them. We are not the ones that have to deal with it. We are back here. We are sending these people to the front and we are not arming them. Then when they ask us for something, then we have to pay attention to what they say because it makes sense. They know all about this. They are the ones that are going to have to deal with these people. They are the ones that deal with the effects of alcohol and drugs and all the other social issues that go on in communities. When they speak, I show them the respect and I listen to them.

Madam Chair, I commend the Minister again, but we need one that is made in the NWT. I am going to vote in favour of referring this to Social Programs for the 16th Assembly. But this spirit is good. When we refer it to the 16th Assembly, I am positive that they will recognize that and move forward on it and not just let it disappear, because people want something done. This is a start. It has to have a solid foundation to put anything on top of it, otherwise it is just going to come crumbling down. This could be that foundation. As it is written, it is almost impossible to support. I listened to the advice of the people. Ultimately, the decision comes down to me sitting here as their representative. I have to make sure that I make the best decision on their behalf. This is what I told them I would do. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. To the motion. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there are many things that will catch my eye, but there are only a few things that will really catch my heart. This SCAN legislation is one of them. It is very close to me. I can really understand where the Minister is coming from. When he first introduced this bill in the House here and he brought it to committee and we took it to the road, we heard the people in the communities speak from their heart and from their personal experience. I can empathize, sympathize and can also relate with them. People that were talking, some of them are here today and some of them are not here.

Madam Chair, we are good people in our communities. Some of them are my friends who we are talking about. Some of them are my constituents who I am working for. Some of them are just not listening to anybody and just continue to do what they are going to do. It is sort of a "catch me if you can" attitude. We will catch you. There are consequences to what they are doing to our children. There are consequences to what they are doing to our people. These people are competing against us. As government, we hate competition in some of our business. These people, through this motion, may live another day just to read it. But they should really think about what they are doing to their people through this proposed legislation that the Minister has brought forward for us to think about.

I commend him because he is a leader that looked at this issue that is very serious in the North. It is something that he is proposing to do because we have talked about treatment centres and programs. It just seems like we have not enough soap box, not enough money to deliver on some of these programs we want. We could go back further to the federal government in terms of them not providing us with enough money. We go through that whole scenario. Madam Chair, the matter of the fact is that people in our communities are looking for help. People in our communities want something to get done. We have a lot of good suggestions. This suggestion here of a SCAN, the proposed legislation, not yet. It is a good idea. It is a good concept. We need to continue working on shaping it. We have to shape it, all of us and with our members and with our elders, as Mr. Lafferty has said. Take into some serious consideration as to really think about this as workers. There are too many questions out there.

Madam Chair, I heard the people speak. I have listened to them. It is not a bad thing to defer this bill. The liquor legislation and the Workers’ Compensation Board, how many Assemblies have they gone through to finally see the light of day in this Assembly? Several. The Species at Risk Act. I would love to see that we have done some work on the 15th. It is the next Assembly. That is a big piece of work. Maybe it is quite fitting that the Species at Risk Act, also this legislation go together because those things are happening. Those species are going to be at risk.

Madam Chair, we are a consensus government. All these here need to be considered with all the people, 40,000 people in our region. There is a lot of work and lots of good people out there that need help. There are a lot of ways to help them. I agree with Mr. Miltenberger, Madam Chair, in terms of we need a police officer in Colville Lake. We don’t need another police officer. Colville Lake said to us in the report they want help. First, we need to go back and get our priorities straight. Again, Madam Chair, I would like to say that, when we look at this here, I am very comfortable that it will be brought up again in the 16th Assembly because this issue here we talked about so many times, Madam Chair, in assemblies in our communities, and we are going to do something about that, the bootleggers, the use of illegal drugs in our communities and other illegal activities. I think that’s paving the way for government to really stand up. I commend, again, the Minister for bringing this forward, the leadership that he has brought and to say let’s have some good discussions. That’s government and you have to go through it slow through our consensus government. Our people out there are the ones who talk to us. I’d like to really give it some serious thought, listen to my people and prepare ourselves properly…(inaudible)…one united voice to say yes, this is a good SCAN. This bill now is ready to be implemented. Madam Chair, I’m going to support the motion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I’d like to start off by thanking the Department of Justice, especially Minister Bell for his determination in bringing forward this piece of legislation, Bill 7. Obviously, you know, Members have concerns with the rollout of Bill 7. There’s a motion before us to refer it back to standing committee. I see the mood and the sentiment in the room is to do that, to refer it back for further review and I just want to say I respect the wishes of my colleagues in doing that. Although I do have a few things that I wanted to say and, again, we’ve heard from so many of our constituents, and you can go around the room here today, that drugs and alcohol are existing in our communities and causing untold devastation, especially to our young people and families in our communities. There are crack houses, there is bootlegging, and we need to do something about that. Taking action is something I believe needs to be done and we need to show some leadership and show our constituents that we are listening to them and that we are going to try to help give them the tools to help protect themselves so that those who choose to partake in illegal activities in our communities aren’t going to be tolerated.

I personally take little pity on those who prey on the weaknesses of others, specifically children. It’s hard to put a price on what it would mean to a mother and a father whose young son or daughter frequents a crack house, gets their crack at the same house everyday, the neighbours who have to live next door to the crack house and see this type of activity going on. Or in a small community, the family that loses a son or daughter on a drunken snowmobile ride that got a bottle from the local bootlegger. It’s hard to put a price on lives. Madam Chair, we’re losing far too many of our young people to the ravages of drugs and alcohol. I really believe we need to listen, we need to understand and we have to come up with a plan to address this. We can’t just sit idly by and watch these things happen in our communities.

I know my colleagues are interested in seeing something put in place, whether it’s Bill 7, maybe a fix, you know, if we get some more northern content in it, if it’s made in the North. There’s a myriad of things we could take a look at doing, but I want to go on record today and say if I am back in this House during the life of the 16th Legislative Assembly, I am going to take a serious run at crack houses and bootlegging and see to it that the work that Mr. Bell and the Department of Justice have started gets concluded and that work towards shutting down crack houses, shutting out bootleggers, continues. We have to do that. We have to come up with a mechanism to rid our communities of these people, Madam Chair. It’s as simple as that.

Before I go, I came here today, and this has been one of the biggest struggles I’ve had to deal with as a Member because I feel so passionately about what drugs and alcohol do to our young people and I want to give, you know…I’ve got a crack house in my riding. I get calls from constituents about traffic there day and night. It's a difficult situation to be in to get calls from your constituents and there’s nothing you can do to shut down that crack house. The police know about it; they get calls every day as well. I think something like this, this might not be a fit, and again, I respect my colleagues and I respect their thoughts and their feelings. You know, I came here to today and I always like a good fight. I mean if you want to fight, I mean, I’ll stand on principle, I’ll do what I have to do; but as much as I like a good fight, I also like to listen and I also like to listen especially to my colleagues and their concerns and especially the public. You know, the feedback I receive on SCAN and the interest that’s been shown in the community, I take all the e-mails, I take all the phone calls I get, I take them to heart, I really do. If folks in the community feel that this legislation needs more work and Members of the Social Programs committee have obviously said they’d like to see it have some more work, that’s something I respect.

Again, it’s time we did something and that to me is the bottom line. Sooner or later the Government of the Northwest Territories is going to have to do something to impact the operation of crack houses and bootlegging operations in the Northwest Territories. Sooner or later and that day is coming. I think, Madam Chair, all crack dealers and crack houses and bootleggers should be on notice that the next government is going to put in place something to tackle that big bad issue that we really need to start working on, Madam Chair.

Again, I want to thank my colleagues, especially Minister Bell who’s put so much time and effort and work into Bill 7. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. To the motion. Next I have Mr. Villeneuve.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. I also want to state my support for the motion that’s on the floor right now for referral to the standing committee for all the good reasons that all of my colleagues have stated here today. So I’ll just be brief with expressing my reasons for support.

One, most importantly being that the general public in the NWT is not really ready for this type, or prepared, I guess, for this type of legislation to be thrown on them along with the new Liquor Act and all other kinds of legislation that we’ve been passing here in this House. However, I have to really commend the Minister of Justice also and just as much gratitude has to be brought to the Social Programs committee for putting this type of report, a comprehensive report that it is, together to address the Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act and the extensive consultative process that they went through to get this report together. I really have to commend everybody for all their work. Just to let it be known that I don’t think all this work is going to be in vain because we’re just referring it to the next Assembly and just like my colleague Mr. Ramsay has stated, the chair, that the 16th Assembly will be putting something in place that will address the issue of drug abuse and substance abuse here in the NWT. I do agree with him that we do have to take some action. It’s a definite no-brainer that we know that, but I don’t think we can take actions that will infringe on basic human rights of freedom and liberty here in the NWT and I think this is what the Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act will do now as it stands.

I hope, and I’m confident, that the next Assembly here will put this Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act very high on their priority list. I’m sure a lot of Members here in the House will be returning and this is one piece of legislation that will be right at the top with the other ones that we have referred back and haven’t even brought to the House yet. With that, again, I’d just like to say that I do support the motion here today and I do support the Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act, but not today.

---Laughter

I hope to see something, I hope it’s tweaked, it’s revamped, and fine-tuned, and the public is well aware of what they’re going to be supporting or not supporting. We’ve got to get more information out there before this legislation comes back to this House for passing in this House. I think the general public in the NWT will let us know when it’s time to do that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Next on the list I’ve got Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I guess I look around the room and it’s pretty obvious where the numbers are so I’m going to have to say, first and foremost, I’m going to have to respect the Assembly’s direction on this. There’s no point in debating it at endless length and pleading when the decision has already been made.

Mr. Chair, one of the calls to action when I was in my election campaign in 2003 was to find solutions for the drug and crack problem. A number of people told me face to face that we had to come up with solutions. They were looking for something. If anything, they were looking for some leadership and some action on this problem because up until that point, not to say nothing was being done, but up until that point, there was a feeling of almost a surrender or a defeatist point of view. Mr. Chairman, I take this quite personally, this act, because I’ve had a number of constituents -- I happen to be the MLA for downtown and certainly if, God willing, the constituents choose to send me back, I hope to continue to be the MLA for downtown -- but, Mr. Chairman, the fact is the downtown has a number of crack houses and I’ve continually received calls from constituents regarding crack houses downtown. I’ve passed all of those on to the RCMP and rightly so, and in many cases it’s taken quite a bit of time and quite a bit of pressure. In some cases, we’ve had very good tenants. In other words, we have crack dealers who know the law, they pay their rent, pay their power, you know, do all the right normal things, but they sell drugs. Some of these are located right next to Mildred Hall. Some are located right down next to our medical clinics. Some are located right next to our seniors downtown. All of that is sort of a mute point at this time. I mean, RCMP know.

Mr. Chairman, I am slightly disappointed, I’m not going to deny that. Even though I’ve said it twice now, but drug dealing is against the law. As long as we continue to find reasons to stall solutions, I mean, I will say I do respect many of the points brought forward. I’ve had a chance to read if not every one, almost every single one of the e-mails, and a few have come in especially as of late. I also have the right to disagree, too, as well as they have the right to disagree with me. But how are we going to solve this problem? Everything was sort of a doom and gloom position as opposed to how can we make this act work? I think the Minister has responded quite handily because committee came forward and said that they would like this, this, and this to address their needs and I think the Minister has come back. But that’s neither here nor there because there’s obviously a lack of will or interest to re-look at this to see if there’s a way to possibly make it work.

Something that needs to be said also is the fact that the regulations have not been drafted on this bill. So what do regulations mean? Well, I mean, we’ve got the structure of the bill and we’ve got possibly a year, maybe even two years to design the mechanics of how it actually works. Even if, again, I’m fortunate enough to return and find that civil liberties are put to the test that they’re just truly unacceptable, I’d vote for the removal of the money in the budget. Essentially, as I’ve said earlier today, I’ll pull the Conservative trick on the gun registry: choke the money, don’t kill the gun registry, just take the money away. So I would take the same principle in the future on this, which is if it doesn’t find a balanced approach. What we’re voting against, or, sorry, referring back today is the structure that I thought was a solution. I’ll concede that the greater Assembly feels at this time that it isn’t the solution and I’ll respect that. I won’t take the Assembly’s wisdom on this in vain; I’ll take it with respect that a little more work needs to be done.

I just want to say one more thing, which is Mr. Ramsay did highlight the need to focus, I mean really focus on the fact that drugs in our community are a problem and we are fooling ourselves if we can find a way to defend this by slowing any process down that tries to hone in on that problem and deal with it. I am a strong and absolute committed believer in the fact that fighting drugs is only 50 percent of the problem. We also have to offer treatment so then there is nobody interested in buying them because they don’t feel the need to have that desire fulfilled. So it’s a two-part process. I’ve never, never thought otherwise for a moment. So I wouldn’t want anyone to think that I don’t believe that. I highlighted today my concern about not getting an additions centre here in Yellowknife in this term and I’m hoping that that will be a success the next term. But the fact is, I think it’s a two-part process.

So, Mr. Chairman, although this is a referral, deep down inside I think it’s more of a recycling bin referral. It’s really up to the next Assembly whether they decide it’s a priority or not. We should really say what it is today, which is it’s the Assembly’s refusal to consider this or to modify this to go forward. I’ll accept that and I’ll put faith in the next 16th Assembly to possibly re-examine this and see if they can accommodate some of the needs, and I’ll say the very good needs and suggestions brought forward in many of the e-mails that I’ve seen. I do agree with some of the intent; sometimes maybe I was just so excited to see something come forward that I was willing to accept the product being offered. Maybe that was my excitement of a solution being put forward today and maybe by all of us stepping back, including myself, we will have a better product in the end.

So, Mr. Chairman, with that, I want to thank committee’s time. I definitely want to thank the Minister, who I know has worked hard; there are a lot of staff that have worked hard and, of course, committee has put a fair amount of time and energy into this bill. So respecting all that, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Next on the list I have Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to be brief but this is a very important matter, a very important motion and I feel I do need to speak to it. Like other Members, first of all, I would like to thank Minister Bell for his foresight and his call to arms, so to speak, to deal with this whole issue of drug dealers and bootleggers in the Northwest Territories. As other Members have said, as well, we are being ravaged by this and in some ways I think we’re afraid to stand up to them. We have grown complacent. We talked about that when we talked about the denormalization of alcohol abuse and substance abuse. We have grown complacent. We have learned to co-exist with it. It has become a part of the fabric of our communities to understand that there will be drug dealers and there will be bootleggers. If we are going to make progress, we need to stand up to this, but we need to find the best way to do that.

I respect the work of the Social Programs committee. They are the ones who went out and went on the road and consulted and have spent a great deal of time and work on this particular piece of legislation and I do thank them for that. I’m going to tell you, I think in my community there is a lot of support for legislation like safer communities legislation, but we work in a consensus government here; we do not try to railroad each other. I have been involved in votes that were passed by one vote before and I tell you, at the end of the day, when you win at a vote by one vote, it really, in our consensus style government, doesn’t leave a very good taste. If I can give you an example. I remember one day driving back here in a snowstorm to get into the House, barely, to run in and support and just be pressured and lobbied about this motion not to give Yellowknife an extra MLA. I have to tell you, many times since then I’ve regretted that because that spawned that whole Friends of Democracy court action, and that was one vote. That was my vote. I was on my way from Hay River and I was late and I got here and the Premier of the day, I won’t tell you who it was, but anyway…

---Laughter

You know, there was a big pressure and it was all riding on me. I have to tell you…I’m telling you it is not in keeping with the sense and the style of consensus government to ram something through on one vote. So we could possibly have pushed this through, but you know the thing is that it would go to the next Assembly and it would need a lot of modification and a lot of support. It’s kind of six of one, half-dozen of the other. We can either take the time now and as Members have committed, and I’ll tell you, if I’m back in this government in the next Assembly, I am going to save the Hansard of this discussion here for the day that Members committed to the principle of this particular legislation. I will remember then, too, that it was Mr. Bell who has the foresight to make sure his department got this on the road and we will not forget about it.

Out of respect for other Members, we need to consider a made-in-the-North solution. I could not agree with Member McLeod more. We need a made-in-the-North solution. We are not like other jurisdictions. We need to give our communities the tools to deal with these problems; maybe a different model. Cookie cutter legislation doesn’t always work in the North. Our communities are very diverse. We’ve got Colville Lake and a place like Yellowknife. How do you enact legislation that can address the needs of both of those communities? Maybe we need to do a pilot project. Maybe we need to do a prototype. Maybe we need to roll this out in one community or maybe a large community, a small community, and see how it works.

When we did the WCB legislation, because of the complexity of it, we approached it in a workshop kind of environment. We didn’t just do it on our routine kind of process that we move legislation along on, because we understood that we wanted to get it right and we wanted to have that dialogue and we wanted to think it out amongst ourselves in collaboration also with the stakeholders.

So I think that it’s just very unfortunate timing. This government is drawing to a close; we have run out of time. We could sit here for the next 10 hours and debate these amendments and everything. I don’t think that, at the end of the day, we are still going to do justice to a piece of legislation as important as this.

Like I said, the Social Programs committee say they have heard the cries of the communities. We all have, and we need, to respect that and we need to listen to that.

I just want to say one other thing that might be slightly off the topic of the motion here, but we need to think a little bit broader and a little more outside the box. We have been taking about drugs and alcohol in our communities. We can clean up the drugs and the alcohol, but there is a reason why people are enslaved to these things. As a government, and I have said it before and I will say it again, we pay very little attention to the spiritual conditions that give people that meaning of life, that purpose of living. There is no reason…You want to talk about a made-in-the-North solution, why can’t we pay attention to that? Why can’t we recognize that having a healthy spirit is part of the whole person and a well person? Why can’t we do that? We stay away from it; we avoid it; we say that’s somebody else’s business and we don’t want to get involved in that, but our people are dying. Our people are getting caught in things that they cannot get themselves out of and we are trying, as a government, to deal with it.

I will support the motion here today and again thanks so much to the Minister of the Department of Justice for the work he’s done on this. It will be back. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Next on the list I have Minister Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, committee. Mr. Chairman, I do have a few comments to make concerning this motion that, if passed, effectively means the end of this piece of legislation unless it’s taken off and introduced by another Assembly, possibly the 16th or maybe the 17th. First of all, I want to thank all Members, particularly those who are representing small communities and have personally spent a lot of time over the last few days to come to me to explain their position on this bill, on these issues. While I may disagree, I want to say that I respect the positions they have taken on this bill. As such, Mr. Chairman, the Premier has asked that I inform the committee that government will not vote on this motion and will respect the will of the House.

Mr. Chairman, I also want to recognize the work done by the MLA for Yellowknife Centre, Robert Hawkins, on what I consider a very important initiative. Mr. Hawkins represents downtown Yellowknife. I know he understands too well the horrible impact alcohol and drugs is having on this community. In fact, he spent a number of hours over the last few months talking to me in my office about this various issue in the hopes for this piece of legislation; sometimes with kids in tow, as he mentioned earlier.

Mr. Chairman, as the sponsoring Minister, I support the bill. More than that, Mr. Chairman, as a member of this community and a long-time northerner, I personally believe that this legislation is another important tool we need to fight the scourge of alcohol and drugs in our community. I find it more than just a little ironic, and Members probably will too, that I am proposing legislation that was championed by the NDP governments in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I guess on this one debate on this one issue I stand with Premiers Calvert and Doer.

Those provinces, along with others like Yukon and Newfoundland, tell us that this type of legislation works, works in their urban areas, works in the more remote communities where the circumstances are similar, in many respects, to the small communities in this territory.

Mr. Chairman, in my eight years in this House, every community I have travelled in in the NWT, I have heard the same stories. Indeed, we have all heard the same stories. Leaders, elders, youth and our residents tell us about how a few people in our communities are preying on others in the community by illegally selling alcohol and drugs. In this community in Yellowknife, there are crack houses operating that the police do not have the time, resources or ability to shut down. These crack houses are having a very real and negative effect on the people in our neighbourhood, in our communities, especially our children, our most vulnerable citizens.

Mr. Chairman, the problems caused by alcohol and drugs is tearing apart families, communities and our territory. As a member of this community, a long-time northerner and as a father, I wanted to do something to stop it and that’s why I sponsored this legislation and why today I still consider it an important tool to deal with these problems in our communities.

To be clear and to be fair, this legislation is not meant to be the entire answer. Obviously, as members of the public have pointed out, we must do more as a government and as a society to provide treatment, to provide healing for our people who are struggling with issues related to alcohol and drug abuse. During this debate and over the last little while, there have been many issues raised about how this new tool will be used. I believe that many of those issues are based on misconceptions about the legislation. As well, I think there were a number of specific issues we were prepared to address here today or through the implementation process. But, Mr. Chairman, I think Members know I had a lot personally invested in this and a number of people commented and asked why the rush. I can tell you that personally I didn’t want to feel as if I had gone through another Assembly and hadn’t don’t enough to deal with this issue or we hadn’t done enough.

So thank you to the members of the committee. Again, I certainly appreciate all the calls and e-mails I received. I appreciate MLA Hawkins’ time on this issue and the discussions that we had. I apologize again that I wasn’t able to bring this home, but, Mr. Chairman, if it’s the will of the House that this legislation not proceed during the 15th Legislative Assembly, I obviously must, and am certainly willing to, respect that decision. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you, Minister Bell. To the motion. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I introduced the motion, I tried to follow the rule of making a statement that is quite narrow and to the motion, but I do appreciate the nature of the discussion by necessity and, more importantly, took on wider statements on the part of the Members. I appreciate very much all the comments and the points the Members made. I think we are doing good work here. I respect everybody’s opinion with regard to that.

Mr. Chairman, I think it should be made very clear that at no time during discussions of this bill in the committee or in the public hearings did we ever hear anyone suggesting that we need to do more or that anyone suggested that we ought to do more to address the drug situation as well as alcohol and drug bootlegging. The question here and the support of the motion is not against all those important issues. I think that should be made very clear.

The question here is whether or not the SCAN legislation is the one that will address those issues and do it in a way that makes sense to people and that is applicable to the North. The question is whether or not the SCAN legislation, as written, is going to do that and I think we have received overwhelming input that this is not going to do that as written. Many people support the spirit of the bill, but they would like us to bring it back and work on it more.

Mr. Chairman, let me just remind everybody here, and Mr. Yakeleya suggested that, the Workers’ Compensation Act, the Liquor Act, Employment Standards Act, Public Health Act, all of them took years and years of work. I am not saying you should work for years and years to delay it, but these are complex pieces of legislation. SCAN legislation has a wide vision and a very big scope and it’s going to set up a whole new infrastructure for dealing with the issue at hand and I think it needs a lot more detail. Even Bill 13, Change of Name Act, which is a simple procedure on changing your name, had about 12 clauses on how to address that step by step. So surely we need to do a lot more work on that.

As the committee chair, I recommend to the House here that we will write a detailed report on the findings that we heard and I will make sure the next government will look at that.

Another thing is we don’t have party politics here, so it’s not like a new party comes in and they wipe out the old party politics clean and they introduce a new party system. The new consensus government will look at all the unfinished business, and obviously this is going to be accompanied in that and I am sure it will be thoroughly addressed and I am sure it will be spoken about during the campaign as well.

Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the RCMP officers all over the Territories, who I know have supported this legislation, who I know felt this was a useful tool, I respect the work the RCMP do and this should not be taken as anything against what they are trying to do. I think we have civilian rules here and we have responsibilities to make sure the powers we give to the RCMP and other RCMP-like officers are written in a way that are clear and have sufficient checks and balances. I just wanted to state that I look forward to working on this. Thank you so much.

---Applause

Thank you, committee. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Does committee agree that Bill 7 be recommitted to the Social Programs committee?