Debates of February 10, 2005 (day 33)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to take this opportunity to make a few comments about the budget that was delivered by the Minister of Finance. First of all, just a general comment. Being part of this huge bureaucracy of government, I’m sort of jaded to think that it really doesn’t matter what one individual thinks and I must tell you when I was listening to this budget I could not believe how much of Floyd Roland I saw in this document and I’m thinking individuals do make a difference. I may be wrong, maybe I shouldn’t bet dollars on it, but I think the second paragraph of page 18 probably was personally written by Mr. Roland and probably the last sentence. I’m not going to get into the details of that. I’ll get people to look it up.

Anyhow, I just want to say that it speaks to the discipline and hard work that we had to do to get to almost like where we were. Four months ago we were looking at complete pictures and we thought that we had to go to the Assembly rough cut, and it’s easy to forget now that we are almost at a status quo budget how hard it was. So I want to acknowledge the work of the Minister and the Cabinet and everybody here for coming up with a budget that’s not as bad as it could have been.

Hear! Hear!

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Oh, my God, that is such a compliment. Mr. Speaker, I know that this is not a comfort to those who are adversely affected by this budget and I want to acknowledge that as well, but I cannot just stop with a compliment. I do want to give another assignment to the Minister of Finance who has done a fine job in coming up with a budget for this round. One thing that I want to see more of next year is that we enhance the money for education. One thing I noticed on page 10, it mentions a very brief statement about changing the curriculum for trade in our schools, in high schools, but I think we need to go further than that. I think it’s time that we revisit the PTR ratio. We went from 18 to one to 16 to one and that is an improvement, but it was an improvement from something that was very bad because, before that, we were at a lot lower rate. So I would like to challenge the Minister of Finance to try to go to 14 to one in the foreseeable future.

The second thing I would like to see is additional special needs funding. Mr. Speaker, in the last government we increased that funding from eight percent of the total budget to 15 percent. Mr. Speaker, may I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement?

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude her statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Education is well aware of this. We did improve the funding for special needs to 15 percent, but it’s not anywhere near enough because I think even a layperson's observation will show that there is a lot more need for special needs funding right across the board in the Territories and 15 percent is not enough. I would like the Minister of Finance to work on getting 20 percent. I support the government’s move to try to fund kindergarten full time because I think that would lessen the pressure on the budget, and I believe that if we do this we could have a better chance of funding trade schools and trade programs in high school that would better prepare our students to take up the occupations that are opening that are mentioned on page 10 of the budget. I will just conclude there with the assignment for the Minister next year and I look forward to debating this budget in detail for the next week or 10 days. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Recently, Mr. Roland, Mr. Krutko and myself had the privilege of attending the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services long service awards. With so much talk these days of trying to recruit and retain health care professionals, it was encouraging to see so many people honoured for the service that they have provided to the regions. Honoured for 10 years, Mr. Speaker, were Jacqueline Doucette, Lucy Geno-Heath, Julie Rivard, Agnes Allen, and Michelle Lennie. Honoured for 15 years' service, Mr. Speaker, were Jane Baryluk, Olive Binder, Pat Grandy, Clara Phillips and Sandra Suliman. Honoured for 20 years were Marion McGinnis, Sheila Mattsen and Joan Cochrane. Also honoured for 25 years of service to the Inuvik region was Barb Lennie.

Mr. Speaker, there were 11 other caregivers from the region who were also honoured and they were acknowledged by their respective MLAs. To those who were born and raised in the NWT and for those who have made their home in the region, we thank you and we’re proud of the fact that they have been honoured for the service and care that they provide. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to pick up where I left off with my Member’s statement today and that’s in terms of the rapid growth of the public service here in the Northwest Territories and I’d like to ask the Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board, the Minister of Finance, what plan, if any, the government has to address the rapid growth of the public service here in the Northwest Territories? I stand up here today as a Yellowknife Member. I know the vast majority of the government jobs are located here in Yellowknife and, again, I wouldn’t want to say that I support massive layoffs or anything like that, I’m just talking about other things we might be able to do. Can the Minister of Finance let us know what the plan is to deal with the rapid growth of the public service? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The Minister of Finance, the Honourable Floyd Roland.

Return To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we go through our exercise as a government, looking at how we spend our money, we look at a whole lot of areas to try to ensure that we don’t spend needlessly in areas, but there’s always a call for more money in different areas, whether it’s NGOs, within government trying to be prepared for a lot of the development that’s happening. Through the normal working of each department, when they are given targets, they look internally to see what areas that they can look at reducing before they go out to other areas. So as you will see as we go through this process, there are a number of areas where vacant positions are removed by the attrition that happens within departments when positions are not being filled. So we do some of that. A large part of the growth the Member is talking about is in the area of where we’ve actually taken on positions that were non-government organization positions before and we’ve pulled them into the government workforce. So that’s one of the reasons for the growth, but I would like to emphasize that the actual numbers of growth from 1999 through 2004 are more in about the 700 position range and I do have a fair bit of detail as to how that happened and I believe I shared that with the Members in the past. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The numbers I am working from come from the public service annual reports from 1992 to 2003. In 1999, Mr. Speaker, it shows the GNWT having a workforce of 2,749. Today, obviously, we are knocking on the 4,500 employee mark. That’s where I am getting my numbers.

In addition to that, the total spent on salaries and benefits in 1999 was $251 million and today, a mere six years later, we are at $400 million. It is cause for concern. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance where the additional funds might come from to satisfy a new agreement with the union and the collective bargaining that’s underway. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, information that we provided since division that would include health boards and education boards were more in the range of 3,740 employees in March of 1999. In March of 2004, we were in the area of 4,500 people employed by the Government of the Northwest Territories. A large part of those were in the area of departmental increases, such as 14 percent of the growth in education; 51 percent of the growth in health services; and, agencies like the Housing Corporation and WCB were about 17 percent. We took in a lot of the operations that were outside of the GNWT.

We do have to watch the growth of government. We do have to keep track of that and we can’t allow ourselves to continue growing uncontrolled. That’s one of the exercises that we have entered into and that’s why you see this budget coming up having a growth of less than one percent compared to this year we are in, 2004-05. So we are doing that. Yes, we do have to be concerned and watch how the budget grows in the area of services. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister of Finance for his reply. I wouldn’t debate with the Finance Minister that a lot of the new money that the Government of the Northwest Territories has received in the past while has gone to frontline workers, nurses, teachers and things like that. I wouldn’t debate that. It seems to me, in addition to that, when new money comes there are always new positions created or developed. I would like to caution the Finance Minister that to me and many of the residents here in the Northwest Territories, this growth rate in the public service doesn’t go unnoticed and it just continues to balloon. As I mentioned in my statement today, there is a compounding effect that at some point in time it could reach a critical proportion and it could cripple the operation that the government undertakes on a yearly basis. I would like to ask the Minister what the plan is going forward. That’s the key to this. What is the plan? What is the government’s plan on addressing this situation and trying to keep the growth rate under control? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, governments from time to time find themselves in a position where they have to look at broad cuts across the board. We, as well, have looked at making some reductions and have implemented reductions and also, through this process we are entering into, are entering into more of the same. At the same time, when residents of the Northwest Territories are calling on us to provide more nurses, more doctors, more teachers, more social workers and they are saying we are not able to address the needs that they are being impacted by in their communities because of the development, for example oil and gas development or the mining development, and they are asking for support, we are trying to be better positioned to help communities and individuals. At the same time, we do have to watch that growth. We don’t have, for example, a target of reducing our public service staff by 10 percent. We don’t have that. As a government, we look at all options when it comes to building a budget. Anything that’s out there, we have to look at depending on our fiscal situation. As we’ve heard in the past number of months, there are people affected by the fact that we have to look at budget reductions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will keep this short. I guess I have been in this House and a Member of this Legislature for just over a year and over the course of the last year, I have seen a number of examples where the government has an opportunity to look at streamlining and saving some money and maybe putting some resources in other areas. To me, it just doesn’t seem to happen. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance when the government goes through an exercise such as centralizing human resource services and doesn’t take a look at the obvious, that being the human resource component, then what are we doing? You have been given ample opportunity to do that, but nobody seems to want to address the human resource component of it. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t go through an exercise like that and not do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 354-15(3): Rapid Growth In The Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am one of the Members and I have had a fair bit of history with the Government of the Northwest Territories. Quite a number of years ago, we went through the exercise of huge reductions. For example, we got rid of the Department of Personnel and told departments at that time they would have to fund from within and find a way to take care of human resources within their own department. We realize now by being disjointed in that fashion that that is not working. We are not meeting the needs of our own staff, as well as those who would come to the Government of the Northwest Territories looking for services. So we’ve pulled a plan together, for example, as the Member used, the human resource service centres, and the goal is to get the job done right. Once we’ve set ourselves up and get the job done right, then we can look at if we are overstaffed. Maybe we will find we are understaffed. What we did in the past does affect how we go in the future. As I stated, at that point we got rid of one department, we told departments to fund from within and right now we are in the process of getting the job done right. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am going to direct my question with regard to teaching and graduate placements to the Premier. I feel it was the highest office that made this commitment and it’s up to the highest office to fulfil this commitment on hiring northern graduates.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is since the directive to hiring responsibility for teachers is with the education authorities, what steps has his government taken that these authorities are taking to heart that promise made by this government to hire northern graduates? I want to know what we are doing to assist them to actively recruit our northern graduates into those positions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Return To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This has been a concern of the department for some time because we do invest in northern people to train as teachers. They graduate and in some cases are not easily able to obtain jobs.

We have always made it known to the boards who the graduates are and how they can be contacted. So that’s there. We do not do the hiring; it’s up to each of the boards. We have a program in place to provide incentives if northerners are hired. As I understand, the Department of Education is now reviewing that program to increase the incentives. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate that extra information by the Premier. I have never heard of the incentive aspect. Mr. Speaker, that still doesn’t speak to the crux of the problem. Have the authorities expressed any further problem with hiring northern graduates? Do they not want them? Do they not know that they are out there? What is this incentive? Why aren’t they hiring them? I need to know from the Premier today, have they communicated problems as to why they are not hiring these northern grads? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I heard two questions there. Mr. Handley, you can answer one or both.

Further Return To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Mr. Speaker, we are not aware of any general issues they have with hiring northern teachers. Certainly they could have difficulty with some individual possibly, but, as a whole, there are no known reasons why any board would be finding it difficult to hire this category of teachers. Mr. Speaker, as I said, it may be individual cases that some don’t do well on interviews and so on, but I don’t think there are any overall reasons. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell me from his position what kind of hammer do we have in place to tell these educational authorities to hire our northern students, because we have a policy on our books to hire these northern students? It can either be a hammer or it can be a carrot. I need to know because we have northern students who are graduating from our teaching programs who are working at Extra Foods and other places while southern hires are being hired. So what hammer or carrot is he willing to commit to today just to solve this problem? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Mr. Speaker, again, it’s up to the boards to do the hiring. We do have a program of incentives. The Department of Education is reviewing those incentives. We would prefer to do it, as the Member calls it, with a carrot rather than with a stick. If we force boards to hire individuals, it is not likely going to be a very happy relationship either for the board or for the individual involved. We don’t want to put people in those kinds of situations. We are sure our people are good teachers, they’ve graduated and we provide incentives that are appropriate to hopefully encourage the boards to achieve what we want which is 100 percent employment in the North for all of our graduates.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear today that the Premier will tie that promise to funding all education authorities. I want to hear it clearly that he is tying their funding solely to the fact that they have to do this as a first step. As I see it, we have lost wages by these students who graduated on the promise that they would be hired. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier either withdraw that commitment made by the highest office in this Assembly or promise to fulfil that commitment, one or the other? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 355-15(3): Hiring Northern Teaching Graduates

Mr. Speaker, we have a program that provides boards with incentives. The Department of Education is reviewing that to see whether or not more incentive would make a difference. If we feel it will, then the department will proceed with increased incentives to hire northern teachers. Mr. Speaker, because these are boards and they have the authority to do their own hiring, we can’t force them, but we can provide appropriate incentives to encourage them and hopefully they will follow the spirit of what we want to do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today my question is in line with the housing theme and is directed to the Minister of Housing, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I listened to my honourable colleague, Mr. Menicoche, when he questioned the Minister on the rent scale in the Northwest Territories. I have some concerns, Mr. Speaker. I met with some of the elders in Tulita on the 27th of January. They are concerned about the rent scales and the effect it will have on them. They asked me to question the Minister in terms of the rent scale. Would the Minister consider having a change of heart and rethink the proposed rent scale that would be acceptable to the people in the communities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 356-15(3): Proposed Rent Scale Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to our seniors who live in social housing or public housing, they will not be affected by this increase. If anything, there won’t be an increase because, in most cases, seniors who live in public housing can't pay. With regard to trying to ensure we are fair, we have, through the local housing authorities, individuals or tenant relations officers who work with the elders and explain how this program is going to be laid out and how it’s going to affect each one of them. There was also an information package mailed out to each tenant to make them aware if they were going to be affected by this increase and how much the increase would be.

Again, in order to be fair to the seniors and the constituents we have, we have been working along with the seniors’ societies to keep them involved. If anything, we have been working with our seniors along with the seniors' societies and through our tenant relations officers in each of our communities. We have also made it clear to seniors and people with disabilities and students that there aren’t going to be any increases if they are in those sectors.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 356-15(3): Proposed Rent Scale Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for letting this House know the seniors will not be affected by the rent scale. However, when the seniors were talking about the rent scale, they were looking at family members and they were speaking on their behalf. Some people are quite afraid that the rent scale would have some effect on them. However, hearing from the Minister, I am glad to hear that. Would the Minister have his department consider or reconsider a transition phase that would be acceptable for this rate increase in the North? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 356-15(3): Proposed Rent Scale Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, like I stated, we are working with the tenants. We do have the tenant relations officers in each of our local housing authorities to explain these increases with the clients. They are also going to ensure that if they are going to have financial difficulties with arrears, we are trying to counsel them to tell them how to pay off their arrears such as you can pay it off over a period of time or instead of doing monthly rental payments, do bimonthly payments. There are ways we can work with our clients with regard to social housing and also making them realize we are trying to find a system that’s fair to everyone. We don’t want to see anyone go through hardship. We are also working with the clients at the higher end who are paying a large portion of their income towards rent and we want them to get into housing through our access programs so they can become homeowners and move out of social housing. At the end of the day, we are there to work with them; we have programs and people in communities to work with those clients. We are presently doing that.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 356-15(3): Proposed Rent Scale Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe a lot of people in the small communities want to become homeowners and they want to be the owner of a house that they can pass on to their children. Mr. Speaker, it has been a long trend that the small communities have gone through. Moving from social housing and becoming a homeowner is sometimes a new idea. Even though we have this plan of action, it’s going to be rough for awhile. So I am asking the Minister to consider this in terms of the numbers he proposed to the House and to Members to maybe have a rethinking of it in terms of having a smoother transition.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 356-15(3): Proposed Rent Scale Increases