Debates of February 18, 2005 (day 39)

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod.

Return To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is no legislative requirement to route a special bypass road for hazardous material at this point. It makes good planning sense, I would assume. The responsibility would fall in the hands of the municipality. If that was the desire of the community to put in a special bypass road to re-route hazardous material, the municipality would have to pay for it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when you travel anywhere in Southern Canada, you always see designated routes with markers, which indicate that there are specified areas in which you can take heavy traffic with tankers containing certain materials and I’d be very surprised if there is no such legislation in the Northwest Territories and, if there isn’t, perhaps there should be. Mr. Speaker, who would be liable today if there was an incident that resulted in injury in Yellowknife because of this type of traffic on our roads? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

Mr. Speaker, that would probably have to be decided by the courts, but I’m assuming that the shipper would be assuming responsibility for the liability. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

So, Mr. Speaker, then the Minister does not feel that Municipal and Community Affairs has any responsibility towards ensuring that municipalities have legislation in place to protect the traveling public when it comes to busy routes and heavily populated areas for hazardous materials. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a concern, of course, of Municipal and Community Affairs. We’ve had numbers of complaints. We have an issue in the town of Tulita where the trucks go right through the centre of the community and we have looked at our legislation. At this point there is no current legislation requiring us to have a bypass road. We’d like to have bypass roads in the communities where there are hazardous materials transported. There is no requirement even through the Emergency Measures Act. However, there is a requirement to conduct a risk assessment and develop a response plan by the community in order to deal with some of these issues, but that’s the extent of what the requirements are under our legislation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The time for oral questions has expired; however, I will allow the Member a final supplementary. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would a risk assessment or an emergency measures plan include not only the transportation of hazardous materials but, as referred to by Mr. Ramsay earlier, for instance, like in the recent incident where we had the airport and the only road out of the city closed for quite a period of time? I believe eight to 10 hours with absolutely no possibility to either get out by road or by air. Would something like that be covered in a city’s emergency plan and would it not make sense to have alternate routes? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 431-15(3): Transport Of Dangerous Goods In Municipalities

Thank you. It may, depending on the community. Each community has a different plan and, for the most part, the plans are different because of the specific and different needs of each community. The plan deals with the issues that are potentially there and would deal with them as required. So it really depends on the specifics. There is no general plan, as the Member has indicated. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Time for oral questions has expired. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to oral questions, item number 6 on the agenda. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a written question directed to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Mr. Speaker, this question originates from numerous enquiries to my office from current and past students and more so from students who have received Student Financial Assistance but have been cut off suddenly by this government when they are into a three out of a four-year program, either be it in the South or in the NWT.

My question is for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

1.

Can the Minister provide information on the number of aboriginal and non-aboriginal students who have received Student Financial Assistance to attend two-year or four-year post-secondary education in the past five years?

2.

How many have completed their studies and received diplomas or degrees and how many have returned to work in the NWT?

3.

How many have not completed their post-secondary educations for reasons related to: accounts with the government; not passing a certain number of courses; financial difficulties; or attendance?

What changes to the Student Financial Assistance Program have been identified by the department and will these hurdles be removed or reassessed?

Mahsi.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my written question is for the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs.

Can the Minister outline the process for settling outstanding claims within the municipalities that don’t already have land claim settlements?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you, colleagues, for your indulgence as I proceed with my first reply to a budget address. I’ve been a Member of this Assembly for just over a year and I wanted to share with you today some of my thoughts and observations. I’d like to begin by saying how interesting our financial situation is. Last year after taking office we were faced with impending doom and gloom, debt wall discussions and straight cuts here for new Members. We were basically forced to stomach some new tax initiatives to increase our revenue and that meant that the public had to pay, as well. The payroll tax doubled from one percent to two percent and here we are a year later with a $44 million surplus, still flying by the seat of our pants.

Fiscal responsibility should go in tandem with fiscal surety and obviously things like resource revenue sharing, devolution and aboriginal self-government are going to impact our operation and the sooner we get the surety on our financial situation, the better off we will be. I do hope the new rules for formula financing, after the 2005-06 period, are beneficial to the Northwest Territories.

An Expert Panel on Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing will provide recommendations on how funding should be allocated amongst the three territories. Through this process, although this process has a certain amount of the unknown, I do think it will be an opportunity for the Northwest Territories to get additional surety on our finances going into the future.

All indications are that our tourism industry is rebounding from the 9-11 terrorism attacks, SARS and the mad cow scares. The GNWT has to ante up to this industry. Again, this year’s budget is void of any increases to what government spends on tourism. There continues to be only lip service paid to the industry. Where is the evidence that we are going to put our money where our mouth is in terms of support for our tourism industry?

---Applause

This will not be the last time I say this, but tourism needs more resources. Through the next year, I do look forward to working with the government and Economic Development Committee, as well as the Minister of soon-to-be ITI, to find some money for tourism.

As a territory, we have come a long way in addressing social needs and we still have a long way to go. As a government, we’ve increased base spending by over $200 million in the last five years in the social agenda. Where are the results of this investment? Our graduation rate is 43 percent. If you compare this to the smallest populated province in the country, Prince Edward Island, which has a graduation rate of 85 percent, it’s abysmal and I think we have a great deal of work to do in this regard. I think it’s time maybe that we even re-evaluate where the resources are spent and what our priorities really are.

Addictions are also an area that I believe this government is falling down on. Whether it’s crack, gambling, cocaine, alcohol and other drugs, addiction and addiction services should be a high priority of this government.

Hear! Hear!

---Applause

The ongoing negotiations between our government and the federal government over resource revenue sharing and devolution continue to come with a hefty price. There’s something fundamentally wrong when a territory with a finite amount of resources such as the Northwest Territories is left having to pay the tab chasing what basically is our money. There is something that is absolutely fundamentally wrong with how this works and I don’t agree that we should have to use what little resources we have chasing the money. We should actually go back to the federal government and demand that they pay us back the money that we have spent trying to get what is rightfully ours. It is just something that doesn’t sit well with me.

I just wanted to mention, too, that I have enjoyed working with my colleagues in the government over the course of the past year. We have a long road ahead of us and I feel that we have to have more of a vision for where we are going, for what we are doing and how we are going to get there. This vision, Mr. Speaker, has to include everyone that calls the Northwest Territories home. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My reply this morning is perhaps not so much related to the actual budget documents before us, but to the process by which our Assembly puts together the business plans and the budget documents.

Mr. Speaker, we are proud in the Northwest Territories of our consensus system of government. We hold it up as something that is different, is suited to us, has deep roots in the traditions and the cultures of the First Nations of the North and that it is something that we want to protect and keep.

But you know this isn’t done easily or just at the drop of a hat. It takes work to keep a consensus government system going. Part of the exercise that we go through here, is on one hand we think that we are one of the most open and transparent and accessible kinds of government in Canada and, at a couple of levels, that is certainly true, Mr. Speaker.

Almost all of the NWT is going to see an MLA or a Minister, I don’t know about daily, but probably weekly or at least monthly you are going to see one of us in your community or at some kind of event, in the lineup at the grocery store, in the stands at the hockey rink or curling arena, and that certainly does make us accessible and available to talk about what is on people's minds. I enjoy that part of the job very much, Mr. Speaker.

But I think there are some anomalies in here and this is where I am going to come back to the budget process. We have a very open stream of information and communication channels, Mr. Speaker, between Regular Members, who sit on the committees that review the bills, the plans and all that kind of stuff. We have a very open channel and a tradition in this Assembly of keeping those channels open.

Where we are distinctly different from Parliament or all the other provinces, except for Nunavut, Mr. Speaker, is that the government is obliged by this practice, by this tradition of ours to inform Regular Members of significant legislative initiatives, the budget being one of them. Our process is great at this level, but where I am always intrigued, Mr. Speaker, is in wondering how much better, how much stronger would our system of government be -- especially at the budget and business plan setting level -- if we were to broaden our horizon and allow opportunity for the general public to have input into our overall long-term planning process.

In this, Mr. Speaker, I think that we are lagging behind trends that other parts of Canada have been demonstrating, I think especially Parliament. Now, Parliament, of course, won’t disclose budget documents to the opposition parties. That would be unheard of. What I am looking at is the tradition that Parliament has started where they take out country-wide surveys. The department and the Minister of Finance will go out on a very broad, very open consultation across the country to help build business plans and strategic directions and priorities. We don’t do that here in the Northwest Territories. I think where on one hand we do have this seemingly open, accessible, friendly kind of a place, on the other hand we are, I think, one of the most closed -- I will even use the word secretive -- legislatures in Canada, because we do not afford the public an opportunity to step into our process at that front end of that strategic planning area.

Mr. Speaker, our business planning process is almost a continuous year-round cycle here. It begins in approximately April, I think, when the Minister of Finance will issue call letters to -- sorry; June, I’m hearing June, Mr. Speaker -- when the Minister will issue call letters to the departments, which is the instruction for them to sit down and begin drafting the business plans for not only the coming year, but it is actually about a three-year business planning cycle that we have before us. Indeed, these plans are tabled. These plans are available to the public.

The next cycle will begin in June, when the instruction goes out to begin building up that next cycle. The draft business plans come back to us on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, and to our committees in September. We spend a considerable amount of time -- about two weeks -- reviewing those plans and budget expenditures and priorities in considerable detail at our committee level.

Mr. Speaker, we come back to look at these again in even more detail in January when the main estimates are brought to us. Again this is done behind closed doors; again this is a review of the kinds of things that the government has indicated it wants to do. I consider it almost a rehearsal for what we are doing here now, Mr. Speaker, which is really the main event and it will be the third time that I will have seen these business plans and priorities and budget amounts in greater and greater detail.

Very effective for me as a Regular Member, as I wanted to take the time to study up on all of this stuff, but almost exclusive of the publics’ opportunity for involvement to buy into this.

Mr. Speaker, look around in the Assembly today and just about any day, the gallery is empty. Not too many people either take an interest or believe -- perhaps believe -- Mr. Speaker, that what we are doing is all that significant.

Here is where I would like to go back to the theme that I talked about where I believe that our institution of governance here, this Legislative Assembly could, I believe, be stronger, if we afforded the public more opportunity to get involved in how we design our plans.

I think our success, like any other institution or any other initiative or any other project that we might want to engage in, will be likened to the degree of transparency and the opportunity that we afford people to get involved. This I firmly believe will help us build trust, build support and credibility in what we do. That is where a consensus government takes work and commitment, and sometimes risk.

I know that sort of kicking the doors open to our committee process would, for many of us, potentially be risky and might not be very comfortable. But I think that we can sustain that, I think that we can survive that and I am going to continue to promote that. It is not an original thought, Mr. Speaker. Several other Members of this Assembly have talked about this at one time or another. I want to continue talking about it. I hope that if there are any members of the public who are hearing us talk about this this morning, that they will get back to us and tell us what they think of this. It’s something I wanted to bring to the floor, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you for the opportunity. I want to thank my colleagues for listening to me about how we, I believe, can make this a more relevant place for everybody in the Northwest Territories and something that will do a better job of helping us to govern. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (English not provided)

Mr. Speaker, my language is a passionate language and in my introductory remarks I spoke about how government keeps our people’s money but has a hard time hearing the people. I am reminded of residential schools where our allowance was given out to us.

At any rate, I will also speak of one of my communities that will remain nameless at this point…

---Laughter

…but it’s very important for them to have a community gymnasium. The government talks about how broke they are and how communities have to wait. Mr. Speaker, when and how will the government help our communities?

Mr. Speaker, I spoke earlier in the week in this House about how astounded I was to get government to listen to our needs. There are several issues that I just cannot seem to get any momentum on. During my campaigning days, a good friend of mine provided an allegory that I continue to use to this day. He said government is like an ocean liner, you make small corrections and eventually it changes its course. But I am taken aback because it has been over a year since I was elected and I should have checked, but now I know that the helm of this government is lashed down. The captain and crew will have to open their eyes and see that the storm has passed and that the way is calm now.

That being said, there must be and there can be an appetite to listen to the priorities of our communities, Mr. Speaker. We should show the political will of this Assembly and do what is requested of us and that should be reflected in our budget. Therein lies my frustration. Here we have initiatives and needs, real needs, Mr. Speaker, brought forth by our people, by our communities and by the regions. In fact, some of these initiatives, for the most part, are supported by the federal government, yet our own government remains inflexible claiming we have a process that is alienable and un-interruptible. To me, we have a big brother saying we know better than you, we know what is good for you.

It is my experience with the capital planning process -- which they say has moved to the regions -- we tell the communities we will give you more say, but the plans will remain the same.

Mr. Speaker, the following initiatives from my riding have received the most white washing and minimizing that I will cry foul. Number one, the Nahanni Butte gymnasium, Mr. Speaker. I will continue to lobby and maintain this high on my agenda as long as it is the will of my people. I will exert every influence and power I have to get this government to listen and take the cotton balls out of their ears and put it in their mouths, Mr. Speaker.

---Laughter

Nahendeh Air; communities in my riding have an opportunity to capitalize on the market share of the pipeline project, yet this government cannot in a year-and-a-half advance this as their priority. They may lose an opportunity here, Mr. Speaker, and I don’t want them to lose the opportunity. The window is very small and people have been very patient, but it’s time for this government to act and make it their priority.

Regarding quality of education in our communities, I provided a course that I found to the Minister of Education; a proposal, Mr. Speaker. It’s a proposal that provides up to 80 percent course completion rates; up to 80 percent graduation rates in our communities. In fact, people expect this from us, to be the wise government to help them and encourage them to move these initiatives along. Here again, Mr. Speaker, the Minister and the government give the appearance that there is no money for this small expenditure. I believe that this qualifies without question for a small school project. All I asked for was a meagre $10,000 to gather all interested parties to review and entertain this initiative that will show our government, our communities, how they are succeeding on the reserves in Calgary; and these are very small communities, Mr. Speaker. It’s our responsibility to take these new initiatives and show them to the people and, indeed, use it in our system as well before finding success.

One other item that the government fears and remains to be blindfolded on is the whole issue of hamlet and village, Mr. Speaker. It is my opinion that it’s going to cost the government money. That’s why they have been resisting it for the past 25 years. The Minister says it’s a new issue. It’s not a new issue. It’s a very old issue, Mr. Speaker. It goes back to the late 1900s, Mr. Speaker. Here is another initiative that the people want, the hamlets want it, the bureaucrats know it doesn’t belong as a village. Everybody knows it doesn’t belong, yet it remains there. Once again -- I may have to use my word of the week -- I am astounded why government doesn’t listen and take all the considerations in. You guys don’t want to be there? Yes, we’ll do it. But, no, they want to keep us there for God knows how long, Mr. Speaker. We don’t belong there. Our taxation roll is $40 million and in 10 years of projected revenues, it’s not going to grow any more, Mr. Speaker. I don’t know how they expect us to generate revenues from taxation from 130 people. Actually, I do have a solution, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps the Minister can put it in his budget, as well. If we tax everybody at $200,000, we will meet our needs of expenditures to handle our O and M, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank my colleagues for hearing me. I just wanted to use this opportunity to convey my frustrations. I hope that government heard me and I will be back. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, want to say to the government not to take the cotton balls out of their ears, but take the acorns out of their ears. That’s what we are doing in the Sahtu in terms of the financial picture that Mr. Roland indicated we have. We have a wealthy territory here, Mr. Speaker. The roads that go into the Sahtu and small communities in terms of the amount of money that comes out of these regions. The picture that Mr. Roland painted for us in his budget address, we have a surplus in the small communities. I say again, some of these larger centres take the services for granted. Communities like Colville Lake, Nahanni, Jean Marie, Tsiigehtchic, even Paulatuk, don’t have the basic services that our people need and are asking for, such as medical services, employment officers, social and health workers, things we take for granted in larger centres. These small communities need these services. We have a surplus budget.

We come down here as MLAs to fight for our people to get these basic services met. We expect them to go beyond that to pay the high cost of living in our communities. The Minister indicated that he has a budget that we are operating on a surplus, yet we are still cutting these programs in our communities and that’s hurting us. Mr. Speaker, it doesn’t make sense to the people back in the communities. We have all these dollars. There is a lot of investment happening in the Northwest Territories. We are providing more services in the larger centres, in the hospitals. We are giving them more equipment, more services, yet we can’t even have a doctor stay longer than a day in Colville Lake or have a nurse go into small communities, or social workers. It doesn’t make sense to our people. People back in our small communities that don’t have these services ask what’s wrong with this. Why can’t we have these services? It’s like anybody else in the Northwest Territories, especially the regions that are producing a lot of this development. They are taking a lot out of the land. I have elders who have asked why we aren’t getting our fair share. How come our communities are still dusty as ever? People in our small communities wonder with regard to the budget here. We have a huge surplus and we can’t control our dust in communities and put in services that would keep the dust down. People are buying filters in the summer in our communities. Filters cost $59 to $75 and they have to change them.

I guess that’s kind of puzzling for our people in terms of the picture Mr. Roland has painted of the Northwest Territories. Mr. Speaker, as MLAs, we come here to ensure the basic needs in our communities…Like Abraham…(inaudible)…these basic needs get met before you look at other things.

We can’t even scrape up enough money to go to the store or buy anything. I would suggest to the Minister to have people in our communities work for us, go on the land. They’ve done some harm to our people. Some need to go away and some need to stay in our region and pay retribution back to our people.

Mr. Speaker, along the process here somewhere, I would like to see where the Minister would involve people in the budget planning and give it back to the people. Let them decide how they can use the money. It’s fine here in Yellowknife to determine what the needs are going to be in our communities, but where are the common people, the little people in the communities, who have a say in terms of what gets spent in our communities? Instead of meeting the bureaucracy needs or the system needs, how about meeting the people’s needs? There are a lot of good people in the system. It’s the system that needs to be changed. I will ask the Minister of Finance if he would look at involving the people in the smaller communities in the budget.

Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude that the Northwest Territories is very rich in terms of its wealth, knowledge and traditions. Mr. Roland indicated in his financial address to the people that we have the money. Somewhere along the way, we have to keep these dollars in the Northwest Territories. They are working out a strategy with the government in keeping these resources, especially resource royalties, in the Northwest Territories so that hopefully within this lifetime we can see a real benefit to all people in the Northwest Territories and improve their lives.

I certainly have learned a lot and enjoyed the past year, as Mr. Ramsay said, in terms of working with the people. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I am pleased to table the report of the Chief Electoral Officer on the 2004 Inuvik Twin Lakes by-election, provided to my office pursuant to subsection 16(2) of the Elections Act.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Monday, February 21, 2005, I will move the following motion: Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that pursuant to section 18 of the Official Languages Act, Shannon Gullberg be appointed as Northwest Territories Language Commissioner; and further, that the appointment be effective February 22, 2005. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Item 15, notices of motion. Item 16, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Item 18, first reading of bills. Item 19, second reading of bills.

Before we go further, colleagues, I would like to draw Members’ attention to the gallery. I have two very special guests visiting us today. We have Gordon Walker and Lynda Brise from Scotland. They have just arrived in Canada and are coming to visit our family for the weekend. I would like to especially welcome them to Canada and to the Northwest Territories and to the Legislative Assembly. I look forward to spending the weekend with you. Along with them is my executive assistant, Ms. Sue Tkachuk.

---Applause

I call Committee of the Whole to order. We have a number of items before the committee on our agenda today. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The committee wishes to consider Bill 19, Appropriation Act, 2005-2006, Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Is committee agreed?

Agreed.

Then we will proceed with that after a short break. Thank you.

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Okay, I’m going to call Committee of the Whole back to order. Yesterday when we left off we were dealing with the detail of the Department of Health and Social Services main estimates and I would like to ask the committee if we are to continue with that, would they agree to the Minister bringing in witnesses.

Agreed.

Thank you. Then I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms if he would please escort the Minister’s witnesses in and ask Mr. Miltenberger if he’d please take a chair at the witness table.

Yes, Madam Chair. Thank you.

I will direct the committee’s attention to the fact that we’re on page 6-17 and ask Mr. Miltenberger if he would please introduce his witnesses for the record.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have with me Mr. Dave Murray, the deputy minister of Health and Social Services; and Warren St. Germaine, director of Financial Services. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. So we are on page 6-17. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to ask the Minister what the department’s stand is or if they’re taking issue with this Internet pharmacy issue and the fact that people are accessing drugs online. Does he consider this to be an issue for the Northwest Territories?