Debates of February 24, 2005 (day 43)

Again, Mr. Speaker, the Member keeps touching on what we’re doing with seniors and people with disabilities. We are working with those groups. We are looking at our programs and services and because of the opportunity we have in front of us in reviewing our mandate, looking at the programs and services that we have and also looking at the possibility of revising policies and guidelines that could assist with regard to ensuring that we’re able to follow those guidelines to meet the needs of our seniors and people with disabilities. But again, Mr. Speaker, I must make it clear to the Member that we have to ensure that we follow the national building codes that are out there on how we deal with barrier-free accommodation for people with disabilities and how we construct these units.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 473-15(3): Seniors' And Disabled Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In no way would I suggest that we should build under the building code. It seems as if the building code is designed as a minimum and a lot of people stick to the minimum, but the minimum does not create quality of life, Mr. Speaker. I think the Minister agreed that quality of life is important somewhere in there. He did mention that policies are being revised. I think I’ve heard him even say we need respectful living with dignity. Mr. Speaker, my question then to the Minister is would he look into a policy that evolves with the times, that addresses the needs of the times, that would identify and have solutions through a policy for people who are seniors and people who have disabilities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 473-15(3): Seniors' And Disabled Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to establishing a policy of dealing with seniors and people with disabilities, I don’t see it being a problem. I think that’s something we can look at. We have an opportunity now. We’re reviewing our mandate going forward with a new Northern Strategy and also looking at how we are going to be dealing with these people. So with regard to the Member’s questions, yes, we can develop such a policy and I will bring that forward for the Member once we have it in place.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, further to my Member’s statement, my questions are to the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. In anticipation of his answers, let me just state that challenging the government on these policies does not speak to anything about us not caring about social housing. I just wanted to say that. I believe that it’s an accepted premise here that we all want to work to increase housing in the North and meet some of the housing needs. My issue with the Minister is the way in which this market housing initiative was brought up and how it was implemented. Given that there are only 14 uptakes out of 22, and given all the kinds of problems that were experienced, not to mention the fact that apparently there was a misunderstanding in the communities from those people who might be able to take this on. So by any standard, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the corporation has failed in the grade and they don’t deserve to move up to the next grade. So I’d like to ask the Minister why he thinks we should move up to the second phase of this market housing initiative. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have a major housing crisis on our hands and this is one of the ways that we’re trying to resolve that crisis.

Good government.

We have to look at housing in the context of how do we get houses on the ground and get more accommodation in communities. This is one of the ways we’re looking at. I think that to access 22 units at the cost that we have been able to, we talk about affordability and trying to get program services to make sure that the client that we’re dealing with is looking at how these units could be occupied and also the rents that we’re charging. That was the big concern under phase one.

For phase two we believe we are able to come forward with changes that will bring down that cost to almost $1,000 a month plus utilities for these units. Before we were looking at almost $1,300, up to $1,500, including utilities. Again, we have to look at it in the context of how do we provide affordable housing in communities.

Also, I’d like to let the Member know that we have, out of the units, nine units which are occupied and presently we have people looking at buying these units. I think you can’t go wrong by buying a three-bedroom trailer in a community for $130,000.

Hear! Hear!

I think it’s important that now we have something there establishing a market in the community where we never had a market before and by having something that’s affordable where individuals can afford to pay a mortgage on these units knowing that the cost is $130,000.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if the Minister is stating because of the needs of housing in the North that the government wants to provide housing by way of purchasing mobile homes and that is the government policy, let’s have a debate on that. This is a total backdoor way of breaking all the rules, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the Minister and the government that this policy was extraordinary. It waived the BIP and it undertook having mobile homes instead of building stick-built homes. The government had an onus to meet that this was going to work, and so far it hasn’t worked. Fourteen out of 22 units are empty and there’s no reason to believe that it’s going to be any more successful. So I’d like to ask the Minister why he insists on going on with this policy that didn’t work. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Hear! Hear!

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d just like to point out to the Member that almost 50 percent of the cost of phase one was done through the BIP process. Fifty percent of that investment was put back into the North for the business communities, the manufacturing business that build the septic tanks, the fuel tanks and whatnot put into these units. So I would just like to clarify that for the Member, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I think we can’t lose sight of the objective that we’re trying to meet here. The whole intention was to ensure that we have housing available for our core program needs that are in communities, such as teachers, nurses, we have community wellness workers, we have people that we’re trying to get into the programs this government delivers. We don’t even have those people in those communities because of lack of housing. So I’d just like to point out to the Member that we are trying to meet an objective, but also a challenge that we are all facing. The government has gotten out of staff housing. We’re trying another initiative, which we’re not calling staff housing. It’s an initiative that we have to ensure that we have program dollars that can be delivered in communities. We can’t take down these barriers for communities to say sorry you can’t be hired because you can’t find a place to stay. We are removing one of those barriers by this initiative. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Mr. Speaker, I’m saying to the Minister that he is not meeting that objective he just stated. Mr. Speaker, this is not addressing the lack of housing in communities. Fourteen of 22 units are sitting empty in Tulita, Fort Good Hope, Fort Liard, Lutselk’e, Fort Resolution, and they have to be sold on the general market. So I want to know if that is a policy now, that the NWT Housing Corporation is officially now the middleman to be a dealer for mobile homes down south to go to communities. Is that what the government’s policy is now? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the Member should maybe go into these communities and see how many people are occupying these units.

---Applause

In the community of Fort Good Hope, we have three teachers staying in one unit. So you accommodate three people in one unit, and that does not mean that all four units aren’t occupied. I think the whole idea to bring down the cost if people want to share rent and whatnot by having roommates, more power to them because they are only paying in the area of $300 a month for rent. I think you can’t go wrong with regard to that, where we have people in social housing who are going to be paying more than that by the rate scale we have. Again, it’s an initiative that we’re working out. The whole idea was to bring down the cost of housing in communities. We’ve heard in this House that the rents are too high. So what do we do? We find ways to basically bring down that cost with regard to the second phase of the program. We figure we can drop the cost from phase one to phase two by 38 percent. Again, we’re bringing down the cost of those units. The costs are coming down from almost $1,300 a month to $1,000 a month for these units. So, Mr. Speaker, if we can have trailers in Yellowknife, Hay River, Fort Smith, Inuvik and elsewhere, why aren’t these trailers good enough for communities?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister should realize the fact that three teachers are sharing a mobile home in Fort Good Hope says that the costs were not brought down. Why else would they have to share the unit, Mr. Speaker? It does not address the problem of lack of housing and it seems that this government applies BIP to communities, but not to businesses in Yellowknife. That’s another topic that I’m going to address at another time. Mr. Speaker, the point is, this is not addressing what the government intended to do and the Minister is not willing to consider any other suggestions and look at long-term perspectives of creating a housing manufacturing industry in the North. So I would like to know what he has done, as a Minister, to find out what’s available in the North so that we can provide stick-built housing in communities, rather than ordering mobile homes for communities that are not even being taken up. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 474-15(3): Market Housing Initiative

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to that, talking to manufacturers and other groups, like I stated, there is no one right now at the present time who has certification to deliver or build these units in the Northwest Territories. We have been talking to people in the private sector who are looking at developing proposals and coming forward. Again, Mr. Speaker, the whole idea of mobile units versus stick built, there’s almost a 40 percent difference between the price of a stick built and these mobile homes. Those mobile homes do meet national building standards and are also arctic built so that they can stand the arctic climate that we’re in. Again, we are working with the private sector in this area and we are considering looking at different proposals and assisting in developing this industry.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister of Finance. Yesterday I spoke about the high cost of home heating oil and its impact on the high cost of living in the Northwest Territories. Today I’d like to ask him some questions again related to the cost of living here in the Northwest Territories. Is there anything that prohibits the Government of the Northwest Territories from amending its tax legislation to include a tax credit for interest paid on mortgages -- something similar to the benefit that was proposed by the Clark administration in 1979 -- that is specifically targeted at Northwest Territories residents who own homes in the Northwest Territories? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there are not any problems with our legislation. We can institute a tax credit on interest payments on mortgages. The proviso is how much will it cost us in our own-source revenue. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister commit to having his department and his officials take a serious look at the feasibility of implementing a tax credit for interest paid on mortgages, including a look into what would be the optimal formula that balances the benefit to homeowners against the cost to government? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would have my department look at the initiative to see what the pros and cons would be and once I have that information, I’d gladly share it with the Members. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister inform me and the other Members of this House when we might expect to hear back from him and his department on their findings? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for sure by the spring session, and hopefully we could have something before that, but no later than that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m wondering if the Minister can answer this question, and that is whether or not the government is in favour of using tax breaks to assist the Northwest Territories to meet the challenges of the high cost of living here. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 475-15(3): Tax Credit For Interest Paid On Mortgages

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think the government can demonstrate, on many fronts, that we’re interested in keeping the cost of living down through many of our subsidy programs. So this would be another one that we’d look at. I guess the big feature of this would be the fact that as we look at programs, is what the cost would be on the revenues of the government. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance just said that he would be interested in looking at the kind of thing that my colleague Mr. Ramsay was talking about: tax breaks, tax situations, and what the cost would be to the government. But here we go, we’re looking internally again. We’re saying oh, gee, this might hurt us. What about the positive impact it might make for the families and the people out there in the Northwest Territories, in the communities, who are coming up short right now because we’re not able to think outside that box? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 476-15(3): Benefits Of A Tax Credit To Homeowners

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we would look at any initiative that would come forward that would cost the government in delivery of that initiative, if we forego taxes in this area of an incentive, we’d have to look at the total cost of that, because if it means we have to come and find another $10 million or $15 million from our own-source revenues, we have to balance that off. Yes, there could be some positive aspects. It would get more construction happening and more people into their own homes. We would need to balance both of those off; I agree. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 476-15(3): Benefits Of A Tax Credit To Homeowners

Mr. Speaker, the impacts and the consequence of our housing prices hurts the people of the Northwest Territories in so many ways; in health, in education, and their chances for having stable and steady employment. Is there a willingness, an appreciation, an understanding at the Cabinet level, that housing is an across-the-board responsibility and not just something that lands in the lap of the Housing Minister or the Finance Minister? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 476-15(3): Benefits Of A Tax Credit To Homeowners

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think we again, as a government, can demonstrate the fact that it is across the board and the cost of living impacts on the health of residents. There are a number of factors that we’ve looked at, as a government, in trying to wrestle with the shortage of housing across the Northwest Territories, and the Housing Corporation has undergone an initiative to try to bridge that gap to a certain degree. Members of this House have put a motion on the floor to decrease the core need, and all of that requires much more money than we have right now, and we either have to come up with new sources of revenue or come up with another way of trying to bridge that gap. So I think we have demonstrated, as a government, that we are interested in that, we’ll look at some options. But at the same time, because we are in a tight fiscal environment, we’re going to have to measure off both sides of the equation to see if in fact there’s a positive enough benefit that we will take the initiative. I think one of the things that has been debated in this House is trying to think outside the box. Thank you.