Debates of February 24, 2005 (day 43)

Agreed.

Total grants and contributions, $30.207 million.

Agreed.

Page 9-30, advanced education and careers, active positions, continued on page 9-31.

Agreed.

Page 9-33, activity summary, income security, operations expenditure summary, $61.365 million. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This whole program is working reasonably well and delivering its objectives. I do look forward to the overall review of all of our income security programs, along with other departments, including this one. My question right now in terms of delivering what we are mandated to do is kind of a localized question, Mr. Chairman. My concern is reflected in some calls that I have had from constituents who seem to have problems with the amount of time it’s taking for their case to be heard or reviewed or the ability of the local income support office to respond to problems or complaints or situations that they are having. I wanted to ask, Mr. Chairman, whether staffing within the Yellowknife income support office or anywhere else in the NWT is an issue. Are clients’ complaints related to any difficulties because we haven’t been able to keep the staff complement up? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have changed the supervisor. We changed the office manager in the last six months. So there hasn’t been the actual review done that we had talked about doing. We thought it would be better to let things settle out and let the new management have a chance to have some advice and input in the process. So we should be taking a look at that operation fairly soon and should have some response we can give Members in the not-too-distant future. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Okay. There is turnover. Should committee still be concerned? Yellowknife is a magnet community. We have more people coming into Yellowknife with issues and problems and needing support. Are we beefing up the income support office to respond to that growing clientele, or are we trying to do more with the same? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So far, we haven’t added any staff. I think we need to give the new management a chance to take a look at the situation and we will work with the current staff to assess the level of difficulty, if you will, and if there is a problem, we will have to deal with it. At this point, there has been no change.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Page 9-33, income security, operations expenditure summary, $61.365 million.

Agreed.

Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We talked a bit about the Income Support Program. Again, I go back to 2003-04, $15.717 million. The main estimates for 2004-05 was $17.956 million and after the revised 2004-05, it was $18.056 million. Can the Minister give us a breakdown on the regions on income support assistance? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I assume the Member is talking about page 9-34 now.

That’s correct, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, if the Member is asking about the regional distribution of the numbers, we don’t allocate the numbers by region. It’s a total allocation across the Northwest Territories and money changes. If the North Slave region doesn’t need to have as much because the economy is good, then that money doesn’t get used there, but it may get used in another region. What we have found is that different regions have different demands every year because of the economy’s fluctuations.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I think at this moment in time, we will call for a short recess. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Welcome back, committee. We are on page 9-33, activity summary, income security, operations expenditure summary, $61.365 million.

Agreed.

Page 9-35, income security, grants and contributions, Mr. Menicoche.

With regard to income security, have we ironed out how we are going to address subsidies of public housing initiatives? My immediate concern is we are going to have somebody who never asked for income support going to ECE. I am not sure what kind of guidelines are in place. These are people with income, jobs, and typically ECE helps people who are in dire need. I don’t know if they have set up a different structure. People are telling me when they are going to ECE, what’s actually going on is you have to expose your whole life to ECE in order to get approved for a program and it’s pretty humiliating, especially to young families getting a start in life. I just wonder how the Minister and the department is going to address this concern.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. We are on page 9-35 and it’s grants. The only thing on that page is student grants. I will allow the question though. Just so that Members are aware, we want to try to stick to topic while we are on that page. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it’s important in the first year, in particular, of the transfer of responsibility of the program, there will be absolutely no change in the administration. The program will still be delivered through the partnerships that were established by the Housing Corporation. The LHOs will be the agencies that deliver the program and there is no decision that there would be a change to that sometime in the future. Obviously we are going to look at how the program is structured and how it’s delivered, but any change is sometime down the road. We are not sure when that is going to take place. I am a little troubled by the Member’s comments. This whole income security program includes the seniors’ fuel subsidy, it includes student financial assistance. There are many people; in fact, the majority of people who collect income support actually work. A vast majority of them work. There is no shame in needing some assistance at some time in your life. That’s something the program is there to accommodate. When the need is there, the government should be ready to step in and provide some assistance.

I would hope that we are not trying to say that somebody who comes to us for student financial assistance is worried because it’s in the income security area. In fact, we think it’s a great choice to become a student. We think that people who access the programming we offer are there because they are genuinely trying to get ahead.

I would just caution Members about saying there is some kind of stigma attached to asking for assistance, because we certainly don’t say that about our students, we shouldn’t be saying it about people who apply for the seniors’ fuel subsidy and we shouldn’t be saying it about people who access income support. The vast majority are only on income support for a short period of time and then they cycle through. The length of time on income support is not big, on average, in the Northwest Territories. In fact, the vast majority are not on income support full time.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I beg the Minister’s pardon if I offended him in any way, but my immediate concern is that the Public Housing Program…I must have missed something because that’s how I understood it to work, that the people currently getting mortgage assistance in that area would be going to ECE for subsidies. The Minister is telling me this is not the case. Why is the subsidy money in ECE, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The public housing subsidy money is being moved over as a first step in taking a look at the program. We thought it was better to tie all subsidies together in one area with the government. At some time in the future, we may look at splitting the department, so that you have the area that has the adult training and subsidies as one department and the early childhood and K to 12 being another department.

So this is the first step in restructuring government to put subsidies all together and allowing the Housing Corporation the opportunity to focus on a single mandate, and that being to deliver housing across the Northwest Territories. What will likely happen is that the program will change, so that the Housing Corporation collects market rents and we will be providing, through the LHOs or Education, Culture and Employment, income security workers, subsidies to people who need a hand to meet that market rent. But it’s the public housing part that we are talking about and it’s the straight subsidy programs. It’s not the mortgage subsidies and that sort of thing.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was my immediate concern; that we would have had a young couple, because of their salary level, I think the Mortgage Assistance Program, the way it operates they would pay $100 or $200 a month less. The way it was rolled out is while this family would have to go to ECE to get…Housing was going to charge them full market rates to get that reduction but, because of their salary level, they would have to go to ECE. So the Minister is saying this is not the case. Is that right, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One little comment before I answer the Member’s question. When I got a mortgage, I got it at the bank and I still had to reveal the most minute details of my life to the banker. If you get a mortgage, you do have to declare an awful lot of your private information.

As I said, this is the first step in moving our subsidy programs into one area in government. In the first year, nobody is going to see a change. It’s all going to be delivered through the LHOs; the same rules, the same standards, the same program. We are working with the standing committee to examine, based on this government’s strategic plan, where we are going with the philosophical underpinning to our subsidies. Once we agree on that, then we will have to take a look at our programs to see whether they need to be restructured. It will take some time for that to happen. In my opening comments for the department, I said it will take a number of years for us to make changes. I am going to have to work closely with the Members of this House, the standing committees and the public as we look at making changes.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes my comments with regard to income security. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Sorry for the confusion at the beginning. I have Mr. Hawkins next.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Speaking to the SFA grants specifically, would the Minister be able to tell me how many grants are withdrawn every year? If a student has been disqualified from their grants, for whatever reason, could the Minister tell me how many grants are withdrawn every year?

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, I can’t. We don’t have that information. We could endeavour to have it delivered to Mr. Hawkins tomorrow.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that, Mr. Minister. Could the Minister also agree to give me the number of how many appeals go to the appeals committee? I know there wouldn’t be thousands. I assume there would be a few every year. Maybe he could give me the number every year for the last five years, please. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will get that information to the Member. It’s certainly not many. I think it’s less than 50 since the inception of the appeals committee.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you. Could the Minister also provide the results of those appeals, whether they were upheld or overturned? I am not looking for further details, just whether the committee voted in favour of the student or not in favour. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We could certainly work on finding that information. This is very similar to the written question submitted by Mr. Villeneuve. He asked for some of the exact same information and some more detailed questions as well. So we are working on putting that together. All of the information will be provided to the House relatively soon.