Debates of February 24, 2005 (day 43)

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One final question, because I don’t have an oral question for tomorrow. Would the Minister be able to provide it by 9:00 in the morning? Is that too early? That was the question.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

I don’t believe we can get it to the Member that quickly, no. We have had people working on Mr. Villeneuve’s written question now for a few days and we have not managed to put all the information together. So, no. I would do my best to get him the information sometime tomorrow, but it won’t be before question period, no.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Nothing further at this time, Mr. Chairman. I will take his commitment and accept them sometime tomorrow. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess, for the record, I would like to back up maybe a page or two into the overall income security area and state again, for the record, one area of difficulty that our overall income security problem has caused and this is for people with disabilities who are recognized as having long-term disabilities and warrant this kind of support. It’s the right thing to do, of course. However, Mr. Chairman, our policies have not progressed to those points where they really seemed to recognize that people with disabilities very often cannot work or are quite restricted in their ability to go out and work. Yet, they are regarded, they are administered, they are monitored as if they were able-bodied people who, once they overcome this certain difficulty in their life, will be able to return to work and either decrease their dependency on the income security system or get off of it altogether. The difficulty this causes for people is they come under an unwarranted degree of scrutiny in their monthly/yearly activities.

One area, for instance, is any income that they may earn is checked against them. If the idea of income security is to provide a top-up so that they can at least survive, that’s fine. I think people with long-term disabilities should be afforded a different set of circumstances. I will use the word less intrusive kind of treatment. So perhaps the Minister can advise whether we are looking at any kind of change in that policy. I have outlined this concern before. For the record, I wanted to make it again to say that we do have a deficiency in our policy and we tend to regard people with disabilities the same way that we regard able-bodied people, and this does cause them unneeded stress and difficulties in their normal course of life.

So I will put that on the record. I know that’s an area we have pledged to work on in our overall review of income security programs and I do hope that we get there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just today I got an e-mail message from an MLA who said a constituent of theirs who is disabled and has lived in another jurisdiction commented to them that ours is probably the best system in Canada for disabled people, in terms of supports.

I think we need to be careful not to say that people with challenges, whether they are physical or intellectual, all want to be treated differently. I think a lot of people feel that they are able to participate and want to be treated like others, so each person is an individual. We have people who you might call severely disabled who are pay-rolled. In other words, they just get a regular payroll cheque, no intervention, every month. Other people may not be as challenged. Those people are expected to participate more and make productive choices.

So it is an individual situation. It’s not one where everybody is treated with a cookie cutter and they are not all dealt with the same. If you or your constituent feel that their situation should be looked at differently, they should talk to their income support worker about that and if they are not satisfied, then try appealing the decision, because there is a process to work it through and people should feel that they are being treated fairly. That’s the goal of the system. If you feel that you have an example that is not happening, then we should follow up on it.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will take the advice there. There have been a couple of forums in Yellowknife on this area related specifically to housing and people with disabilities, but there were concerns voiced there about how some of the aspects of our system do treat them. I will take the Minister’s suggestion that there is flexibility in the system and I would be happy to work with constituents to see if we can resolve their cases. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I would also remind Members that they are welcome to work as advocates for their constituents, working in person with them. If at any time they are not satisfied that things are being done properly, the appeals system is set up to deal with that.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

Finally, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask the Minister with regard to income support, when was the last survey done to determine the rates that are currently in income support pertaining to food and clothing?

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We raised the rates in 2004. There is a survey done every two years, in conjunction with the Audit Bureau, and we typically try to raise the rates or change the rates as they need to reflect the cost of living in different communities.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So all these income support workers at the community level have different rate structures pertaining to food, clothing, et cetera.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes. I misspoke; I meant to say the Bureau of Statistics and not the Audit Bureau does the surveys.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

It appears to me that the survey wasn’t done for the last little while. It appears that the amount of money that the people who are on income support weren’t receiving adequate funding for their food and clothing. Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that a lot of these people, especially single-parent families, particularly for clothing, it’s not done on a monthly basis when they get their income. Is it done only once or one time? That seems to be the problem, Mr. Chairman, because if you qualify for income support and it happens to be in May, you don't qualify for clothing. That seems to be a problem in various communities across the North. Could I ask the Minister if I'm correct in that area, where the clients are eligible for clothing? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I suspect that the Member is referring to the seasonal clothing allowance, which is a bigger chunk of money on an occasional basis to reflect the need for warmer clothing, for instance, to get through the winter. That is only given out at certain times during the year, and typically only to people who have been on income support for a period of time. As I said in an earlier response, people tend to cycle on and off the system. So if they come in just needing support for a month, the expectation isn't that right off the bat they're going to get that funding right then. It's three months…or six months; sorry. If they're on it for six months, then they qualify for the seasonal clothing adjustment.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

Mr. Chairman, I think that's the problem. I think six months is a little too long before somebody…By the time six months is up, it could be fire season and they could be going into fire fighting or something, or getting seasonal employment during the summer at a lodge or someplace else. If somebody gets on stream in November and then after April, they will qualify in May, during the seventh month. But if they do find employment, particularly in May for fire fighters who may be on income support during the winter, I disagree and I'm not in favour of the way it's being administered now. I think six months is a little too long. I wonder if the department could look at that component of income support, and maybe lower it to perhaps three months, as the Minister first suggested but then he was corrected by his DM, and it's six months now. I think that's a little too long in order for you to qualify for clothing. What are you going to do for six months if you have a lot of kids and they're just living day to day and not getting new clothes for their kids for six months? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can have a look at it. Recently there has been a consultation process that we've undergone with people across the North on our strategic plan. I would be interested in seeing, as we go through the data, whether or not any comments came out about that.

I suspect that the theory behind the six-month stipulation is that people come into the program, they have the clothing that they're wearing when they come into the program, and the reason for it happening every six months is that there's an understanding that kids grow out of clothing and people wear clothing out. So there is a portion of the funding each month that is not just all for food; it's for food and clothing and sundry goods. So the monthly amount is intended to cover the day-to-day things. The every six-month funding is to cover the over and above, because your wardrobe does wear out. That's one of the reasons for it.

So, yes, we could take a look at changing the time, but we would have to then come back to the House probably for more money.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

If he does, I would support that particular Minister. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. We're on page 9-35, income security, grants and contributions, grants, total grants, $8.478 million.

Agreed.

Pages 9-36 and 9-37, income security, active positions. Any questions? Agreed? Page 9-37, income security, active positions. Mr. Zoe.

Mr. Chairman, active positions on income support under the Tlicho heading, we have only one full-time and one part-time. Could I ask the Minister where these two positions are located? I think the Tlicho region requires more than one-and-a-half positions to serve the four Dogrib communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that both positions are in Rae. It's two equivalent positions, so it's equivalent to full-time equivalents. Given the caseload in the Tlicho region, that's not an unreasonable number when you compare the numbers that we have through regions across the Territories. There is not a big caseload in the Dogrib region. There are not a lot of people who are on income support. The economy has really dramatically impacted the numbers in the whole North Slave region that are collecting income support at present.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

Is the Minister saying that the number of people that we have on the frontline, that you feel they are serving the people to their best ability? I'm hearing something a little different, particularly for the outlying communities; not particularly Rae, because the income support is there only periodically. When they're in need, some people don't have phones and they have to go to the band office and start to phone Rae, and if there's a need, it causes some logistical problems where they can't get in touch with the income support worker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is an issue, I know, in some regions. For instance in the Sahtu, the caseload there only requires having one worker in the whole region. So that means that they have to go the communities. They're based in Norman Wells, and they have to get to Tulita, Deline and Colville. But given the numbers who are collecting income support in that region, that's all we can justify, because there isn't enough to keep more than that person busy. That's the situation we find in the Tlicho region, as well. If there are people who aren't being served, maybe we need to work with bands to find a way to improve communication so that it doesn't necessarily increase the number of trips that they're making to some of the smaller communities. If we can find a way to work with a band council or a community council, we're certainly prepared to examine what the options might be.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Page 9-37, income security, active positions.

Agreed.

Page 9-38, lease commitments - infrastructure.

Agreed.

Page 9-39, student loan revolving fund.

Agreed.

Page 9-40, detail of funding allocated to education authorities. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question on the Beaufort-Delta Divisional Education Council. It has declined from $23,997 to $23,881. Is that simply because of teaching positions? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.