Debates of February 25, 2005 (day 44)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the Minister of Justice and it’s in regard to the $1.4 million in additional funding for 10 new RCMP officer positions in the Northwest Territories. Can the Minister say for me today where exactly these new positions are located? I know in Minister Roland’s budget address it outlined four different communities. Maybe the Minister has a breakdown for us where these positions are located. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The positions on the highway patrol unit are two for Hay River and one for Yellowknife. The other positions, as I understand it, there would be about six positions that would go between Rae and Yellowknife and some other communities. But I believe the Member is most interested in the highway positions. I’d just like to make sure that the Member knows that the RCMP officers who would be dedicated to highway patrols would also have cross-training and specific training in drug interdiction. So there is training that is provided to highway patrol officers to ensure that they are able to work on the highway system to watch for drugs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess the deficit that I last heard was that we needed 26 new RCMP officers in the territory. This funding only addresses 10 of them. I know drugs are a huge issue here in the Northwest Territories. What are the Minister and this government going to do to try to secure additional funding so that we can fill the other 16 positions by this time next year? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, with the positions that we have in this year’s budget and what was in last year’s budget, we are only going to be six positions short of what the RCMP asked for. I told the standing committee, when I appeared in front of them, that it was my intention to put the request forward as part of the business plan for next year, to follow through on delivering those RCMP officers in the next budget. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister given any thought to maybe requesting of the RCMP to develop some type of drug taskforce here in the Northwest Territories to try to curb the amount of drugs that are coming into our territory? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I meet with the RCMP, drugs are certainly an issue that we talk about. I think it’s important to remember that there is a section in the RCMP that deals with drug trafficking and they are federally-funded positions. I have been working with Chief Superintendent Summerfield to pressure the federal government to make sure that all of those positions are filled and active in the Northwest Territories, and I will continue to make the point with the RCMP that we do need to be very vigilant on drugs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just wanted the Minister to confirm for me that there are indeed two new positions going into Hay River. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 486-15(3): Additional Policing Resources

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As recently as last week I had that confirmed to me by the RCMP from headquarters here. So as far as I know, it may have changed in the last week, but I doubt it. I believe that the traffic unit will be increased by two officers based in Hay River. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise again to ask questions about multi-year funding and my questions will be directed to the Premier of our government. Mr. Speaker, it’s my opinion that multi-year funding could be the hallmark of this Assembly instead of oil and gas and hydro. So with that question with regard to multi-year funding, is it a position or a policy of this government to create instability or uncertainty amongst our volunteers or in the NGO sector, or at the very least is it a position of our government, although maybe not written, to support our volunteer or NGO sector? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I’ve heard about two or three questions there. I’ll let the Premier answer one. Mr. Premier.

Return To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Mr. Speaker, I’ll answer the last question. Yes, it is the policy of our government to support non-government organizations within the mandate that we give them. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for being very clear on your support, Mr. Premier. Mr. Speaker, I believe that these NGOs provide the frontline service that our government does not provide. Does this Premier have a position in this government that these NGOs provide a significant role to the social fabric of the Northwest Territories that the government is not offering in basic service? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Mr. Speaker, there may be some cases where NGOs are offering a service that we do not offer. In most cases, I would look at it as the NGOs enhancing the programs and services that we offer by dealing with it in a more specific way, often regionally or by community or simply in terms of the mandate doing it in a more detailed way. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my next question for the Premier of our government truly is a straightforward one; maybe we’ll get a direct answer on this one. Mr. Speaker, in June of 2002 we had our government table the action plan for a social agenda. Where is this government’s action plan to addressing the need for multi-year funding to address the starving stability that’s out there for NGOs and volunteer organizations? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Mr. Speaker, I’m not really sure what starving stability is or isn’t.

---Laughter

But, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the issue of multi-year funding, our government has and continues to negotiate for multi-year funding with non-government organizations. We have done that, we’re doing it and we’ll continue to do that. Mr. Speaker, I have to say though that every multi-year funding agreement is subject to the appropriation being passed in this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a heavy booklet here that’s double sided. There are 40 line items a page and there are about 10 pages here of groups that we make go through hoops and wringers every year to sign up for their funding, and they only get the phone call at the 11th hour on year-to-year funding. They have to do proposal after proposal every year. This creates instability and they can’t hire workers. My question for the Premier is will he look at addressing the problem with multi-year funding, as outlined in the social agenda tabled in this House in June of 2002, and address this problem immediately? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Further Return To Question 487-15(3): Multi-Year Funding For Non-Government Organizations

Mr. Speaker, even if non-government organizations have multi-year funding agreements, they still have to annually account for the money that has been given to them. We still have the right and responsibility to change the mandate or change the contract that we may have with them. Mr. Speaker, this House votes the budget every year. We can’t have multi-year agreements that go beyond the authority of this House. So, Mr. Speaker, they will continue to have to account for the money. If some NGOs are frustrated because they are applying for money every year, then they should talk to the appropriate Minister about negotiating a multi-year funding agreement so they don’t have to put in a new application every time. But they will have to account for their money each year, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I want to direct my questions to the Minister of Justice with respect to the remand centre and the Dene K’onia closure and the proposed changes that the Justice department is going to be undertaking come April 1st. Many of these changes are going to be directly affecting my constituents, which utilize many of the services that are offered south of the lake today. I just want to point the Minister’s attention to one of the policies, in Justice establishment policy 82, where the mandate clearly states that shall carry out in a manner, which respects community and aboriginal values and encourages communities to assume increasing responsibilities. That’s a mandate that’s stated right in the Justice establishment policy, Mr. Speaker.

On top of that, there are a couple of principles that should be noted also. Principle number four, an effective justice system is one that is sanctioned by the community it serves. Principle number five, community involvement can lead to the development of a justice system, which is accepted by the communities it services, which meets the needs and aspirations of the community it serves, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to ask the Minister how is this department’s proposed changes in the upcoming fiscal year, if it doesn’t contradict, blatantly contradict these principles and the mandate of the Justice department establishment policies, how can the Justice Minister say that it’s right? Tell me. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This government stands committed to regional involvement with communities or regional and community involvement in the justice process, and that’s why we have community justice committees. That’s why we’re adding funding for the community justice committees to be involved in justice. We are also committed because we support the courts to travel to each and every community to conduct the courts as they are necessary.

Mr. Speaker, when we’re talking about Dene K’onia, I don’t disagree that we have tremendous programming and tremendous staff resources there, but, Mr. Speaker, in the last few weeks we’ve had one, sometimes two young inmates from south of the lake. Spending $1.5 million a year for that number of inmates is not a good expenditure of taxpayer dollars. We can’t afford to keep two facilities in operation in the Northwest Territories with the numbers of people that we have in custody. So we have to take a look at rationalizing that expenditure somehow.

Very few people from any single community south of the lake are housed in the remand facility in Hay River. This doesn’t mean that if somebody is sentenced to jail from that region that they wouldn’t wind up in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, but the average length of time in remand is 31 days. So after that period of time, the inmate would likely be housed in a facility that is close to their family and relatives. But again, it’s a matter of saving money. That’s $400,000, more or less, that we can save, plus or minus $5,000 or $10,000 we think. That’s still a significant amount of money. So between the two, we propose savings of $2 million and that isn’t something that is easy to ignore. Those are big savings and if we actually do have the money for that kind of expenditure, then we should take a look at where that fits into the priorities of Members of this House and priorities of government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think one of the priorities of this government is servicing and good justice for our youth, Mr. Speaker. Just one point on the community justice committees. I know that this government has cut a lot of community justice coordinator positions also, with this new rolling out of this new fiscal responsibility. I just wanted to make the Minister aware that the many years that, for instance, the Dene K'onia has been in operation, when they have had 30 to 40 kids in their custody, with a $2.2 million budget, they still managed to come way under budget. If that isn’t efficient or effective work, I don’t know what is.

The government organization policy also states that equitable distribution of socioeconomic employment benefits of government activity, throughout the Northwest Territories, through decentralization, will permit the organizations to provide programs and services effectively.

Mr. Speaker, I don’t know how effective a program can get if you are…Through the last five years, the program has saved well over $3 million in effective budgeting. How can the Minister say that this is not an effective and efficient organization? I just want him to point…

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve, I heard a question there. We will let the Minister answer.

Further Return To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I never, at any time, said that the facility was not being run effectively and efficiently. What I did say was that if we are going to have the number of young people that we have in custody, which is a very small number, we can’t afford to operate two facilities. It doesn’t matter how effectively or efficiently they are being operated, it’s still costing way more than is necessary to spend.

We need to rationalize the number of facilities because we don’t have the number of kids that are being kept. This isn’t something that is new just to us. This is happening all across Canada. Facilities are being closed because we don’t see as many young kids incarcerated as we used to. That is good news. It is good news because those community justice committees are being more active, they are diverting more kids and they are keeping kids out of custody. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One of the unforeseen cost overruns that we are going to run into here is retraining a lot of the staff that are going to be taking care of these kids here in Yellowknife. Just to go back to the mandate of the Justice establishment policy, the mandate will be carried out in a manner which respects community and aboriginal values and encourages communities to assume increasing responsibilities. I don’t know how far away you can sway from that through these proposed changes. That is way out to lunch there, as far as I am concerned, with the whole Justice savings and the reasons they are closing the Dene K'onia and the remand centre. It just doesn’t make sense, according to the mandate of the Justice department. When is this Minister going to make a commitment for those employees that are all going to be affected by these changes? When is this Justice Minister going to give them peace of mind and say you’ve got jobs that are coming down the line? We know there are cuts in the whole Justice department, there is a restructuring, but you will still retain a position in the Justice department. Is the Minister willing to make that commitment? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can’t make that commitment. The budget that we have brought forward obviously involves the layoffs of staff in order to meet our fiscal target. I can’t guarantee that people who have received layoff notices are going to keep their jobs in the public service.

We didn’t issue any layoff notices to people who work in the remand facility in Hay River. Not one layoff notice was issued there, because none of the folks are getting laid off. They will be absorbed into the staff at South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. The staff at Dene K'onia…It is unfortunate, but if we close the facility, yes, we don’t have jobs that are necessarily available for all of them.

All of the employees have been offered government-wide hiring priority, not just at Justice, but in other departments they have opportunities for positions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don’t think that just the fact that they are given government priority in positions is really any kind of peace of mind for anybody. That just goes along the lines of affirmative action. That’s just a loosely termed excuse, as far as I’m concerned, with the whole department. I just want to ask the Minister, does his department foresee any training initiative or cultural enhancement initiatives, that they are going to have to undertake with this whole new restructuring of the young offenders and the remand? As far as Dene K'onia goes, there are many people.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. I will let the Minister answer that question. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 488-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that the people who work at Dene K'onia have a lot of good skills that could be used in the system, and I have no doubt that they would be qualified for some of the positions in Yellowknife. If they are interested in transferring to Yellowknife and taking those positions, I am sure that they would be offered some of them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, it seems like this entire decision, with respect to the justice system, has all been based on cost savings. I have to say again today, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe those numbers. The $400,000; how that number was arrived at and how it was calculated is just not sound math or calculation in my opinion.

Mr. Speaker, I want an in-depth analysis of how much this is actually going to save. Because that is what we have narrowed it down to. This is only about saving money, this is not about fairness or decentralized services or serving people close to where they live. This is only about money. So let’s talk about money.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, when we look at how the Minister calculated this $400,000 savings to shut down the remand, it was based on 5.5 positions of casual employees at $76,000 per position. Surely we have attendance records, we have payroll records to go back on. I want to know what the exact numbers are. I don’t want to take a nice round number like 76 and multiply it by 5.5 and say that is what we are saving. The Minister, even today, is using words like, give or take, $10,000 here, $10,000 there. He used words like, we think. I don’t care about we think. I want to know what we know. Surely we have enough historical data…

Hear! Hear!