Debates of February 25, 2005 (day 44)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just perhaps I could suggest that before we go to general comments on Bill 19, Department of Transportation, that we consider Bill 15 and see if we can’t conclude that and then resume with the Department of Transportation.

Okay. Is committee agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I’d like to ask if the Minister responsible for Bill 15, Tlicho Community Services Agency Act, wishes to introduce the bill.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I’m pleased to speak to Bill 15, Tlicho Community Services Agency Act. This bill was developed in consultation with the Tlicho Treaty 11 Council team and is the final piece of territorial legislation required to ratify the Tlicho agreement. It follows the Settlement Act passed by the 14th Assembly in October 2003 and the Tlicho Community Government Act passed by our government in June 2004.

I want to acknowledge the hard work and dedication of the Tlicho, GNWT and federal negotiating teams that have enabled us to arrive at this final stage of the legislative process.

Before I speak to this bill specifically, I would like to share a few comments on the Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Agreement as a whole.

The Tlicho agreement is the first agreement in the Northwest Territories to combine land, resources and self-government in a single agreement. It materializes the vision held by Chief Monfwi at the signing of Treaty 11 in 1921 and has set a new standard for land and self-government agreements across the country.

The Tlicho agreement provides certainty for all levels of government and industry with respect to lands, resources, governance and jurisdiction. It also leaves room for self-government to evolve over time. The implementation of this agreement will increase the political and economic stability of our territory and mark the beginning of a strong economic future for the Tlicho region, the Northwest Territories and all Canadians.

The Tlicho people have invested over a decade of hard work and millions of dollars to get to where we are today. Their commitment came one step closer to fruition in December when the federal Tlicho bill received third reading. I was happy to hear that Grand Chief Joe Rabesca and a large delegation of elders and chiefs were able to be in the House of Commons when the Tlicho bill received third reading. It was indeed an historic moment -- and one that was celebrated, not only by those on Parliament Hill, but by Tlicho people back home in their communities -- as they watched and cheered the vote from their homes, their work and their schools.

Most recently, the federal bill received third reading in the Senate and was given Royal Assent. I was honoured to appear before both the House of Commons and Senate standing committees to express the GNWT's support for the rapid passage of the Tlicho bill. The Tlicho Community Services Agency Act, which is before you now, is our final step. The act provides for the establishment of an agency to deliver education, health and social services to all residents living in Tlicho communities or on Tlicho lands.

In accordance with the Tlicho Intergovernmental Services Agreement, the agency will continue to perform the functions of the existing Dogrib Community Services Board. This includes the duties of the Dogrib Divisional Education Council under the Education Act, which is to deliver the K to 12 education program consistent with the standards established by the GNWT. The new agency will also perform the functions of a board of management under the Hospital Insurance and Health and Social Services Administration Act. In summary, the model will continue to build upon the integrated delivery of health, education and social services.

In addition, the agency may, with the consent of the GNWT, perform a variety of additional roles assigned or delegated to it by the Tlicho government or by the Government of Canada. The GNWT may assign additional responsibilities to the agency in consultation with the other parties.

The model that has been incorporated in the Tlicho Community Services Agency recognizes the advantages of using one system to deliver core programs to all people living in Tlicho communities or on Tlicho lands. The agency will be composed of five members. Four members will be selected by the Tlicho community governments, which will be elected by all community residents. The Government of the Northwest Territories will appoint the fifth member, who will also be the chairperson. The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs will be the political point of contact between the Tlicho government and the GNWT for matters related to the new agency. The departments of Health and Social Services and Education, Culture and Employment will continue to have the primary role in working with staff on day-to-day operational matters.

Already, the Tlicho have been active in creating social and education programs to better meet their needs. This includes a scholarship program to assist students who will become the future professionals and leaders in the Tlicho government. The Dogrib Treaty 11 Council funded an Addictions Strategy that has already produced 20 trained addictions counsellors to serve residents in Tlicho.

The establishment of the Tlicho Community Services Agency is a testimony to how public and aboriginal governments can, and will, work in collaboration to ensure the interests and rights of all people are protected. It provides that practical arrangements can be made within the context of self-government to meet the interests of all residents of the Northwest Territories. It is an example of true partnership.

I urge all of you to approve the Tlicho Community Services Agency Act as soon as possible and in doing so embark on a new era for the Tlicho nation, residents of the Northwest Territories and Canada. At this time I would be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Premier. I will now call on Ms. Lee, the chairperson for the standing committee that oversaw the bill. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Social Programs conducted its public review of Bill 15, Tlicho Community Services Agency Act, on December 10th, 2004. The committee would like to thank the Minister and his staff for presenting the bill. Bill 15 is the last of three pieces of NWT legislation needed to implement the Tlicho agreement. The bill will create a new agency which will replace the Dogrib Community Services Board and assume the responsibility for delivering education, health and social services to residents of the Tlicho region. Bill 15 is based on both the Tlicho agreement itself and the 10-year Intergovernmental Services Agreement entered into by the GNWT, the Tlicho and Canada in August 2003.

Mr. Chairman, committee members asked the Minister several questions about what, if any, changes to operations and accountability would come about as a result of this arrangement. The Minister advised that it is unlikely that residents will notice changes immediately, apart from the board members themselves who, with the exception of the chair, will be appointed by the four community governments. As the Minister put it, "I don't think we will see any immediate change if we were to go into the classroom or into the hospital or into the community. I think the kind of change we're going to see is probably a new sense of self-esteem, of pride, and so on, that people are delivering their own services, that they have self-government."

The committee understands that changes to program and service delivery may happen gradually, as over time the agency has an opportunity to build its capacity to take on additional responsibilities, and as the Tlicho government considers its own legislation. GNWT legislation and standards will continue to apply, and the GNWT will continue to be accountable for reporting on results and statistics, as it is currently for other health boards and education authorities. The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs will have the lead responsibility for the agency; however, the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment and the Minister of Health and Social Services will have responsibilities and authorities similar to those under existing legislation and will continue to be the contacts on day-to-day matters. The first recourse for a resident with concerns about the agency would be to the board, and then if the issues could not be worked out at that level, to the Minister.

Members also questioned the Minister on whether the new agency will cost the GNWT any more than the existing board. The Minister advised that the only additional cost will be the GNWT's share of the expense for the cultural coordinator, which amounts to $60,000. The cultural coordinator is a new position with the responsibility of advising the three parties to the Tlicho agreement on how to use their respective powers in ways that respect and promote Tlicho language, culture and way of life. It was agreed that the GNWT, Tlicho government and Canada would share equally in the cost of this position, which will be jointly appointed by the parties. The committee noted that the Intergovernmental Services Agreement provides that the Tlicho Community Services Agency will be funded at levels comparable to other GNWT agencies delivering similar programs and services.

Members also asked several questions about the transition process. The committee was generally satisfied, from the Minister's responses, that reasonable steps have been take to ensure the transition from the Dogrib Community Services Board to the new agency will be as soon as possible, with minimal or no disruptions to programs and services.

Mr. Chair, the committee's review of Bill 15 provided an opportunity for Members to discuss and reflect on the significance of the new relationships we are embarking on with the Tlicho agreement and what the future may look like 10, 20 or 100 years from now. As can only be expected with the first self-government agreement in the NWT, there are many unknowns. How will it work when the Tlicho government begins making its own laws in areas of shared jurisdiction with this Legislative Assembly? What will happen if the parties decide not to renew the intergovernmental services agreement when it expires in 10 years? Will other NWT aboriginal groups negotiate similar arrangements, or will we see different models in each region? What will this mean for the role of the GNWT in the future?

The reality that there are many questions that today do not have answers cannot prevent us from going forward. After all, this is not the first time as a territory that we have ventured into the unknown. We need only recall the division of Nunavut and the NWT less than five years ago as an example.

The committee is satisfied that the parties have made all possible efforts to provide clarity about their respective obligations, to set out processes to resolve issues and conflicts that may arise in the future and, most importantly, to ensure that Tlicho residents continue to receive programs and services without disruption. The agreement is filled with review, consultation and dispute resolution provisions to this end. We must all recognize, however, that not everything can be foreseen, and that ultimately it is not clauses in an agreement, but rather the ongoing good faith of the parties and their determination to make self-government a success that will make or break this new relationship. In the committee's view, the hard work of the parties in arriving at the Intergovernmental Services Agreement and this bill demonstrates that we are off to a good start.

Mr. Chair, the committee would like to take the opportunity to wish the first board members and employees of the Tlicho Community Services Agency a smooth start-up, and success in fulfilling their responsibilities to Tlicho residents.

This concludes the committee's opening comments on Bill 15. Individual Members may have additional questions or comments as we proceed. Following the committee's review, a motion was carried to report Bill 15, Tlicho Community Agency Services Act, to the Assembly as ready for Committee of the Whole. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. I would now like to open it up for general comments on Bill 15. General comments. Mr. Zoe.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will be speaking in support of Bill 15. As I said earlier today in my Member's statement, it has been a long journey for the Tlicho people to get here. This bill is the final piece of legislation needed for our agreement to come into effect. It is the part that lays out how health, social services and education will be delivered in the Tlicho region. These are core programs that have a tremendous impact on everyone's wellbeing, personal growth and ability to take advantage of opportunities life brings. It's very significant that they are now being put back into our own hands after so many years.

Mr. Chairman, our elders, leaders and negotiators have come up with a very thoughtful and wise approach, that will allow us to take over and expand these important programs gradually as we build our capacity. I guess you could say, Mr. Chairman, for now we will have the same car, but what will change is that we will be the ones in the driver's seat. In a few years, we may want to trade it in for a new model, and that will be our decision. Our people's access to services will not be disrupted in any way, but I think, as the decision-making power changes hands, they will start to see more of the Tlicho values reflected in their everyday dealings with the new agency. At the same time, they are assured of the same funding and standards as everywhere else in the Territories.

Mr. Chairman, the children of the today are going to grow up in a very different world than I and my peers did, or that our elders did. They won't be dealing with a lack of cultural understanding or outright racism in the education, health and social services systems that we experienced. The Intergovernmental Services Agreement provides for a cultural coordinator who will advise the Tlicho government, the GNWT and Canada on how they can use their respective powers in ways that respect and promote Tlicho language and culture. This will be a very key role, Mr. Chairman. Fifteen or 20 years ago it was not something I would have imagined was even possible.

The children of today will never see the Tlicho people as depending on an outside government to tell us what to do. I hope that they will grow up proud and taking for granted their entitlement to govern themselves according to the Tlicho ways, and to have their language and culture reflected in programs and services. The sky is really the limit for this generation, and I hope they realize that.

Mr. Chairman, I don't think we can say enough thanks to the elders, leaders and negotiators who put their heart into their agreement and legislation for us. So I would like to express my appreciation to them once again. I would also like to thank all the Tlicho who would have liked to have been here in the gallery to witness this historic occasion. I'm looking forward to celebrating with them in the near future, and to the rest of the Tlicho people as we pass yet another milestone. I also want to thank the Minister and the government for bringing this bill forward, and the Standing Committee on Social Programs for their supportive comments.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to sharing with all other Tlicho people the work of implementing the agreement and showing the rest of the Northwest Territories and Canada what we can achieve and how far we can go as self-governing people. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. My apologies, Mr. Zoe. I was going to ask the Premier if he would like to bring in some witnesses. It must be Friday afternoon, or thank God it’s Friday afternoon. Mr. Premier, please, your witnesses.

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Your witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms could you please escort in the witnesses.

Thank you, Sergeant-at-Arms. Thank you, Mr. Minister. Please, for the record, if you could introduce your witnesses. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me are Bob McLeod, the deputy minister for Aboriginal Affairs; Sharla Carroll, the director of policy, legislation and communications; and our legal counsel, Martin Goldney, from the Department of Justice. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Any further general comments? Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a general comment. I will first start off by saying that I am in support of this and I will be voting in favour of this bill.

Just for the sake of the public of course, there are concerns. Of course, we are establishing a new education board and health board. Maybe if the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs could outline how the agreement would work. For example, if there is incompatibility in the sense of a standard, the GNWT would like to move forward with a different standard, if the Minister could give us an example on how that type of relationship in those standards would work.

There are questions out there on the street as to how that works. It would be good to hear from our Premier to give a simple, yet clear-cut example on the compatibility of those things. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the new agency being created through this legislation basically takes on the same services and programs that are offered through the Dogrib Community Services Board.

Mr. Chairman, as an agency it has, through the Tlicho government, the authority to be able to make changes to any laws with regard to the mandate of the agency. Before they would make those changes, they would have to consult with the GNWT. They would also have to assume responsibility for any incremental costs. If for some reason GNWT considered that the proposed law would make it difficult for us to operate, we would consult with the agency and the Tlicho government to determine what course of action would have to be taken. This could result in either the GNWT or the Tlicho amending their laws to ensure that the laws could operate side by side. A specific example might be around the number of days of instruction in a year in a school system. That is stipulated in our Education Act. If the Tlicho government were to want to change it, either make it less or more, they would have to consult with us and we would then have to determine whether it was possible to do that given the reasons, and any incremental costs from it would be borne by the Tlicho government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister. In that regard, picking up on the small example again, to help drive forward an ultimate clarity on this. If the Tlicho people wanted to, for example, change the days of school or the number of hours the students had to attend school, does that change once it’s acknowledged, whether it’s agreed upon in the long run, once it’s established in that area? Does that force the territorial side to adopt that rule, or just formally acknowledge that they have agreed? For example, the Tlicho people go to school less, again receiving the same quality of education, that’s not the question, we would acknowledge that difference, but we don’t have to implement it territory-wide. Could you clarify that just for that sense? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, Tlicho laws apply only to Tlicho citizens. At a practical level, we don’t want to operate two different systems in a small community. I would hope that we would be able to come to an arrangement where we would have one arrangement for all of the people who live in that particular community. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, just one last question. It has been raised at committee level, the question of being able to teach in the Tlicho language as the primary language. If the Minister could provide clarity on their ability to provide teachings or instruction; again, not questioning the quality of education that they are teaching, but in the context and the delivery vehicle of how they are teaching. If the Minister could comment in that regard. If the Tlicho people would want to proceed with teaching it in their language, do they have that ability? Are there any restrictions? Do they have to consult with us and to what grade levels would that affect? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the Education Act provides, as a provision, that the language of instruction can be in an aboriginal language; in Tlicho, in this case, from kindergarten to Grade 3. If the Tlicho wanted to go beyond that, then they would have to consult with us and we would attempt to negotiate an arrangement that is fair to everyone. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one last comment, not a question. I wish to again reaffirm my support and I will be voting in favour of this. At this time I wish to acknowledge, I have been told through my friends in Ottawa, that the Premier/Minister of Aboriginal Affairs did a great job in front of both committees, of the House of Commons as well as the Senate. This emphasized that he charged this issue forward. I have heard it firsthand from witnesses in the gallery, who watched him at play. In other words, the Senators and the MPs didn’t have a chance with Joe in the chair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you very much, but I think there are a lot people who did a lot of great work on this; much, much more than I did. I appreciate the compliment as well though. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, speak in favour of Bill 15. It has been my privilege to have voted for all three bills that this Assembly agreed to pass, to enable this claim to happen.

As we have come through many years of negotiating and back and forth, and we have the legislation, of course now the work will begin. It might be the end of a process, but it is the beginning of the real work of putting this to work for the Tlicho people. As my colleague from North Slave said, restoring authorities and responsibilities that had always been with the Tlicho people.

I certainly consider that it was not something that was given back or gifted, they were always there. We are just going through a transition. Along with those responsibilities, of course, will come a new mandate and mantle of self-governance. These things are not easy and I wish the Tlicho people every good wish in making this work. It is now up to them to prove that after all these years they have something that will indeed make a difference in their lives today and in the future.

Mr. Chairman, in the committee's work and in going through my understanding and comprehension of this bill, it has become more and more evident that this new legislation and the new relationship between the Tlicho people and this Assembly changes somewhat. I have been working at trying to make sure that they understand the nature of those changes in terms of this Assembly’s responsibility to pass budgets, for instance, to support and uphold the laws and the regulations and the policies that we have that will continue through our relationship.

So I wanted to just put a couple of questions in this area to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps in the area of the relationship this Assembly now has or will soon have with the Tlicho people. What will have changed in the way this Assembly operates and in our accountabilities to the Tlicho people? Does anything change there and, if so, in what way? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, there won’t be any immediate noticeable change that we will see in terms of the program delivery and the quality of the service. I think it will continue for the time being. The Tlicho government has agreed that they do not want to take over new responsibilities or draw down any responsibilities for 10 years. So it will continue much as it is now. The biggest change that will result from this legislation will be the new agency. There will be some consequential amendments to some of our legislation, the Financial Administration Act, Public Service Act, in the access to information section of the privacy act because board employees will be public servants with the exception of the director who even now is not a public servant. There are those kinds of changes to legislation. But on a practical level in terms of delivery of services and the kind of service that is developed, I don’t see where there will be any changes. There is also a provision, Mr. Chairman, that the Tlicho can take on more responsibilities in the cultural area, for example, or they may on languages of instruction or operations. So those kinds of things may happen gradually, but generally we will see a continuation of the same kind of delivery of service by the new agency as we have up to now through the Dogrib Community Services Board. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Mr. Chairman, will our accountabilities out of this Assembly be altered in any way? Perhaps I can phrase the question this way; that if I was a Tlicho citizen and I had a difficulty with the way in which a GNWT service was being provided, where would I go? Would I go to this new community services board and expect to get satisfaction there? Would I go to my MLA? Would I go to the Minister responsible for whatever program and so on? I’m just trying to seek that difference or that clarification and to make sure that I understand what my job is here as a part of this Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If someone had concerns with regard to the quality of service or questions about the service or programs delivered by the Tlicho Community Services Agency, of course they would go to a board member or they would go to the chairman of the board or they could go to the director if they wanted to. If they felt that this was a matter that they wanted to bring up to the GNWT, the contact person in the legislation is the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. So that would be their first point of contact and then, of course, they would be referred to a specific Minister or department that has responsibility. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Right now, Mr. Chairman, we’re engaged in the annual budget review and, of course, through this is the opportunity to hold to account Ministers for various programs and for results to date and for what they hope to achieve in the future. This is something that I take as a very significant part of my responsibility as an MLA, and that’s why it’s going to take three weeks, maybe four weeks, to go through this budget. We want to make sure we do it carefully. Will my ability to hold the government to account be diminished or changed in any way because of this agreement as it relates to the performance of the GNWT in Tlicho regions? Is it something that I’m going to perhaps be expected to say well, hands off, that’s not your job anymore, Mr. Braden, there’s another relationship going on there. Have my duties changed in any way? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, no there won’t be a change. The GNWT is obligated to provide the funding at the same level as we have in the past. The agency is subject to the same reporting requirements as any of our boards and agencies under the Financial Administration Act. So I think the accountability is going to remain the same as it is now, just through a new agency. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Thank you. I think that’s all for now and thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I’m proud to sit here today to be discussing the Tlicho Community Services Agency Act, which is one more step away from the self-reliance of the Tlicho people who are achieving significant milestones at every corner they come to. They are kind of groundbreaking in terms of the self-government model, and it’s something that people and chiefs in my riding aspire to and tend to look to the Tlicho to pave the way and be a model for us. I just wanted to say in my comment, that I’ll be speaking for the passage of this legislation in third reading, and I, too, would like to congratulate all the chiefs, the grand chief, all the negotiators involved and many of the background workers that worked so hard to get this agreement with the Government of Canada and, indeed, with the Government of the Northwest Territories, as well. It’s something that takes a lot of hard work and a lot of agreement, and I just wanted to pat everybody on the back that was involved in this and to say once again that when it’s the Deh Cho First Nations' turn, I look forward to the day that we can tea dance as well. Other than that, I would like to say, at this time, congratulations to all the Tlicho people and all the Territories. I wish them a great future. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. There wasn’t a question. I’ll go to Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just in terms of general comments and to the legislation, I would like to say that I’ll be voting in favour of this legislation today. I would also like to congratulate the Tlicho people. I think that as a non-beneficiary or a non-member of a claimant group in the Northwest Territories, I will say that one of the things I enjoy most about the North is to watch history in the making and unique opportunities seized upon here in the North that are not opportunities that are available to people anywhere else in Canada. It makes it very exciting to be part of and to observe and to contribute wherever we can. I know that there is a certain amount of apprehension when things change, and I am sure the Tlicho people will proceed with due diligence and care for themselves and for the future of their people. I am also sure there will be some growing pains and some interesting turns in the road, but I have absolute confidence they will rise to all of the challenges and this will be the beginning of a new era for them. With that, I wish them all the best. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not going to be asking any questions. I would, though, like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Tlicho people on this, the final piece of legislation, to launch their self-government into action.

All the time I have watched them since I have arrived in the North, I have noticed that the Tlicho leadership, the families and communities have got a powerful history of supporting education and learning. I think that shows in the success that we see of young people in that region. The Tlicho have consistently put their organization’s money into scholarships and other supports for students. I am sure that is why we see so many young Tlicho people in post-secondary studies. It’s a disproportionate number in comparison with other peoples of the North.

With this legislation, the Tlicho are going to have a successful organization to the community services board. I am sure that the community services board can claim some of the credit for the success rates that we are seeing in the Tlicho region. I am also pleased to see in the new act, in the new community services agency, that there will be continued involvement for communities through the communities overseeing the schools through an organization like the DEAs. Again, I think community involvement in the administration of schools helps to build the community sense of the importance of schooling and helps to ensure that the community leaders are seen as supporting schooling.

I think this is a good step that is being taken. Mr. Zoe, I would like to applaud the Tlicho leadership and negotiators for all the time and dedication that has gone into this. It’s a job well done. Congratulations. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. McLeod.