Debates of February 25, 2005 (day 44)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Justice in follow-up to the discussion that we were having on the last set of questions. Mr. Speaker, I just really question the quality of information that the Minister is being provided by his department, because I still do not believe that the $18,000 that is being indicated for travel is sufficient to accommodate the inmates that will be in remand that will need to be transported back and forth. Mr. Speaker, if I can have access to the kinds of statistics that I need and I can put a case together that that number is, in fact, wrong and that these savings and these initiatives are based on supposed savings which are incorrect, will the Minister reconsider the closure of the remand facility? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The magnitude of the numbers is, I am sure, relatively close to what the exact numbers are going to be. Whether we are saving, $300,000, $400,000 or $500,000, there is a significant savings to close this facility. So even if my numbers were wrong, they are not wrong by that amount. The amount of money that’s in this year’s budget, Mr. Speaker, is $400,000 less than what it would take to keep that section of the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre open. That’s what the department has given up. So whether the department is exactly right in the numbers that have been presented or is off by a factor of $2,000, $3,000 or $4,000, isn’t really the salient issue here. We have given up $400,000. We can’t continue with the operation of that facility without that $400,000; we have given it up in this budget. So the budget that’s before the House is giving up that amount of money. We are satisfied that it’s relatively close to that amount that we can save through shutting it down. So, again, it’s not an issue of whether it’s $18,000 for transportation. The issue is how much money are we going to save? We are saying we can save $400,000, Mr. Speaker. We believe that that’s the magnitude of the savings.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Mr. Speaker, I do not believe the department can save $400,000. It is not free to look after remand inmates in Yellowknife versus Hay River. You have to include the human resource costs too. It’s not just the cost of transportation. Before we were talking about a 10 percent variance on $18,000, now we are talking about maybe it’s $300,000, or maybe it’s $400,000. You know, this decision to restructure Justice has been premised on a certain amount of cost savings and if that is not the cost savings, then the decision should be reconsidered. Does the Minister agree? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am satisfied that the magnitude of savings are there. We are going to take $400,000 less in this year’s budget. That’s what we are talking about. Even if the department was wrong by $50,000, and I don’t think they are, I just picked the $300,000, $400,000 or $500,000 just out of the air. Even if those are the numbers, it will be plus or minus over the $400,000 that we are going to save. It may not be exactly $400,000.

The Member asked about human resources costs. The cost to supervise an inmate at the North Slave Correctional Centre is $38.57 a day. At the South Mackenzie, it’s $156.49. Why the difference? We have economies of scale in the larger facilities, so it’s cheaper per inmate.

In an earlier question, the Member had asked whether or not I thought there would be more cost for somebody to be housed at the North Slave Correctional Centre and I said maybe the cost of food might be an incremental cost. In fact, the per diems, including food, clothing and recreational expenses, are less at the North Slave Correctional Centre than they are at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. Again, it’s because of the size of the operation and the economies of scale. So there are other savings that we haven’t even started to talk about here, Mr. Speaker. We are comfortable that give or take $400,000…Will it be $400,000 on the penny? No, it might be a little more or it might be a little less. But the department has given up, in this budget, $400,000 and we are comfortable that we can provide the same operation with that reduced funding. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister said he had picked a number out of the air and I think that’s exactly what he’s doing on these savings and these reduction initiatives. He’s picking a number out of the air and so is his department. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister if he is so confident of his numbers and the projected savings, would he not then agree to a conservative investment, not some big, full-blown extensive review, in an independent opinion to verify these numbers that he’s so confident of? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don’t have any money in the budget to do that. I have given up, in this budget, the $400,000. The bottom line, Mr. Speaker, is in the budget that’s before the House, we have reduced the expenditures by $400,000 and have said in order to achieve this reduction, we have to close the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre remand unit. Mr. Speaker, we will function this year with $400,000 less. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don’t know exactly how the Minister thinks he can make these projections, except based on historic data. I am saying that I will be quiet and I will go away on this issue, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister would agree to have an independent person look at this projected savings, which I say is a supposed savings. I don’t believe it’s there. If he will agree to that today in the House, I will await the answer of an independent assessment of these projected savings. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 492-15(3): Closure Of The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not inclined to agree to that right now, but it is something…I will double check the figures myself and endeavour to show the Member where we can demonstrate the savings. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.