Debates of February 3, 2006 (day 22)

Clause 5.

Agreed.

Clause 6.

Agreed.

Thank you. To Bill 13 as a whole?

Agreed.

Does committee agree that Bill 13 is ready for third reading?

Agreed.

Bill 13 is now ready for third reading. I would like to thank the Minister and the witnesses for their appearance here today. Thank you.

We will just give them a second to depart and we will get on with Bill 14.

Thank you, committee. We will now go to Bill 14, Public Airports Act. I would like to ask the Minister responsible, the Honourable Michael McLeod, if he would like to introduce the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to present for your consideration Bill 14, Public Airports Act.

In 1990, the federal government devolved the authority for the smaller airports in the Northwest Territories, also referred to as the Arctic B and C airports, to the territorial government. A similar process transferred the six larger, or Arctic A, airports in 1995.

Since that time, the Government of the Northwest Territories has been operating these public airports through the powers granted by the airport devolution agreements, the Commissioner's airport lands regulations, and the Financial Administration Act. This piecemeal legislative approach was intended to be temporary. I must tell you that I am very pleased to have Bill 14 before you today for consideration.

The new Public Airports Act spells clearly the powers of the Minister of Transportation respecting public airports. This act will provide greater clarity and transparency with respect to airport operations.

The proposed act sets out the statutory authority of the Minister of Transportation to establish, construct, operate, maintain and close public airports in the Northwest Territories. It also consolidates, clarifies and more clearly defines the authorities of the Minister with respect to public airports, and will enable the Minister to operate public airports more effectively.

The proposed act specifically authorizes the Minister's legislative authority over the following five areas:

First of all, the act provides regulation-making authority to designate Commissioner's lands as Commissioner's public airport lands.

Secondly, the proposed act authorizes the Minister to establish, administer and operate public airports and to designate a pre-existing NWT airport as a public airport.

The proposed act authorizes the Minister to establish leases, licenses and other agreements in respect of public airport lands.

Fourth, the proposed act includes provisions for the regulation of commercial activities and vehicular traffic on public airport lands.

Finally, the act authorizes the development of regulations for fees, rates and charges to assist in offsetting the costs of public airports.

Throughout the development of the proposed Public Airports Act, extensive consultations, with a range of stakeholders, have taken place. We have consulted with the aviation industry and other stakeholders, including the Northern Air Transport Association. In addition, we have consulted Government of the Northwest Territories departments and Transport Canada.

I am pleased to report that throughout the extensive consultation process, no major concerns were received from any of the stakeholders consulted. One minor concern raised by Transport Canada resulted in a revision to the draft bill. This revision provided further clarification to the distinction between the authority of the Parliament of Canada and that of the Government of the Northwest Territories. As you may be aware, the federal government maintains authority over civil aviation, including safety, security and commercial, business and general aviation activities. For clarity, federal legislation still applies to airside operations, such as runway and taxiway operations, while Bill 14 generally applies to landside operations, such as air terminal buildings and parking.

There has been a need for this legislation since the transfer of the public airports from the federal to the territorial government in the 1990s. The interim approach used since the transfer has limited the ability of the Minister of Transportation to operate the public airports in the most effective manner. For example, the Minister's authority to regulate motor vehicle traffic at airports, to assign and administer public parking, and to regulate the provision of commercial services is not clearly defined in the existing legislation. The proposed Public Airports Act would clearly define these and other authorities in the same way as the Public Highways Act establishes the Minister's authority over the highway system.

As the territorial airport system matures and becomes more sophisticated, many of the issues related to the day-to-day activities that occur on NWT airports have become more difficult to address and resolve using the transitional provisions that were put in place at the time the airports were transferred.

After 10 years of experience operating the airports, this legislation is required to address many of the issues related to commercial activities, traffic management, parking control, and managing fees and charges that have become more complex and complicated.

In closing, I sincerely thank you for your time today and for your consideration and review of this important legislation. I look forward to any questions and comments you may have. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. I would now like to ask the chairman of the Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development, Mrs. Groenewegen, to provide the committees comments on the bill. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development met on January 18, 2006, to review Bill 14, Public Airports Act. The committee received a written submission from Mr. James Pokiak of Tuktoyaktuk, asking that the rules restricting public access to the apron be made less restrictive in smaller communities. The committee also received a letter from the Tuktoyaktuk Community Corporation in support of Mr. Pokiak’s submission.

Mr. Pokiak gave the examples of family members needing to unload coffins and people wanting to access aircraft that they have chartered. As Mr. Pokiak stated, people going out on the land often have bulky and heavy items and it does not make much sense for a family on their way to a camp to have to drive to the fence with a load of 45-gallon gas drums, unload the drums from the truck and then roll them over to the aircraft to reload by hand.

While committee members are sympathetic to Mr. Pokiak’s concerns, we understand that airside operations are regulated by the federal government and it is, therefore, not possible for the GNWT to address this issue in its own legislation. However, impractical or unreasonable the rules may be in situations such as the ones Mr. Pokiak described, the Minister advised us that the federal government is unlikely to change them.

Committee members questioned the Minister on whether the act would allow for the creation of airport authorities. The Minister and his staff confirmed that it does not.

Following the clause-by-clause review, a motion was carried to report Bill 14 to the Assembly as ready for Committee of the Whole.

The committee would like to thank Mr. Pokiak and the Tuktoyaktuk Community Corporation for their letters, and the Minister and his staff for presenting the bill. This concludes the committee’s general comments on Bill 14. Individual committee members may have questions or comments as we proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. I would now like to offer the Minister to bring in any witnesses. Does the committee agree?

Agreed.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, if you would like to bring in witnesses, please proceed.

I would now like you to introduce your witnesses that you have with you today.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce Mr. Russell Neudorf, the deputy minister of the Department of Transportation; to my right, Mr. Paul Guy, the assistant director of airport programs and standards, Department of Transportation; and, Ms. Janis Cooper, legislative counsel for the Department of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I welcome witnesses this afternoon. I would now like to open the discussion to general comments on Bill 14. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a couple of quick comments in regard to Mr. Pokiak’s request. I understand the legislation. If they were to go onto the apron, how will they be penalized if they happen to take in all of their equipment to the small aircraft? What steps will the airport manager take to penalize them? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chair, the authority for vehicles to go onto the airside of an airport is not in this legislation. This legislation is intended to reflect authority over the groundside of the airport. However, having had the question raised to us at the committee and also a letter from Mr. Pokiak, we did take a look at it and review the Aeronautics Act that governs the airside of the airport. There is allowance for the airport manager to authorize vehicles to go on. We have had our staff go into Tuktoyaktuk to talk to the individual there and also the airport people. We will make that information available to all of our airport managers and have that information circulated.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you. Will the notification be given after this legislation is passed, or is it in the process now? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chair, we have already been to Tuktoyaktuk. This legislation is already in place. However, that information regarding the access to the airside is not part of Bill 14.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am just trying to understand what the Minister trying to tell me…A trapper goes to the airport, opens the gate, goes into the apron of their airline, where their airline lands. Isn’t that part of the responsibility, or is that federal? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chair, again, this is outside of this act. I am trying to get information as we go here, but, Mr. Chair, there is the ability to access the airside through a different legislation that is administered by the federal government. Our airport managers are authorized to grant a permit to do so. There are rules around it. However, that information is being circulated to the different airport authorities. We also have had our staff go into the community of Tuktoyaktuk to provide that information.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Another question I would like to ask the Minister is in regard to the airport managers. As you know, we have one airport manager in Tuktoyaktuk who oversees Holman, Paulatuk and Sachs. In that regard, what sort of further responsibilities would the airport manager have? In those smaller communities, they are on contract. The airport manager travels to communities on a monthly basis to see how they are doing. How will some of these changes be to the smaller communities? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chair, this bill will not change the authority of the airport managers. I don’t believe the airport manager is on contract. Our contracts are usually with the maintenance side of the airports. That is the case in Tuktoyaktuk. We just recently put the airport maintenance to public tender. A local company has taken on that responsibility. Our airport manager will have the same authority. In fact, he would have also the responsibility to act as an enforcement officer in the airports that he looks after.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just for clarification, I know that the airport manager is employed by the department. I think I was leaning towards the contracts that the department has in smaller communities, say CARS. They do have people that work that fit under contract. Having said that, I think that pretty well covered my question in regard to the airport manager. He can oversee these people in the smaller communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, that is quite outside this bill. However, we don’t look after the CARS contract anymore. That responsibility is through NAV Canada. They have gone to a private company to administer this program. So that responsibility is no longer ours.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. Braden next. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am interested in the aspect of this bill that covers the provision of airport lands to businesses and other tenants, especially the case at our larger airports, Mr. Chair, where there is more business and commercial activity. Of late here in Yellowknife, I think a relatively long-standing issue has cycled up again. This relates to the ability of businesses to access our airport lands on a leased basis and then, of course, the comparative cost of that land to other commercial options. Perhaps a question of the core of this is, to what extent could, or should, territorial airports be in the business of making their lands available to businesses without an airline or an aircraft function? In respect of that, one side of the question is, what is the value of a piece of airport leased land compared to the value of a piece of commercial land right across the street, and how does this equate for the business community? The question that I wanted to put in relation to this, Mr. Chair, is, what methods are used to establish lease rates and costs in communities where there is a viable commercial market? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chair, we believe our rates for leases on airport lands are comparable to what the city leases their lands for. We do an assessment on a five-year basis. Every five years, we have a consultant come on stream. We do an assessment and check the market to see if our rates are comparable. So we are quite comfortable that it is comparable. However, having said that, it should be noted that the service levels are not the same. Our lands are leased out. They don’t have provisions for water and sewer at this point, so the rates could be considered higher on airport lands than they would be within the city.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Braden.

Thank you for that information, Madam Chair. I won’t get into a discussion of that. I think that is outside of the bill, but I appreciate knowing how this is done.

The bill sets out quite a range of terms and authorities that the department and, of course, the airport manager needs to be able to run the place efficiently and effectively. What I wanted to probe a little bit here was the accountability of the authorities, the airport manager, to answer for and justify the kind of rules or regulations that they may set. Say in a municipality, and I guess in a very rough sense I equate the operation of an airport to running a small community. There’s a whole bunch of different things that have to be in place for it to work efficiently and that’s fine, I don’t dispute that at all. But in any other public venue, if rules are going to be set and penalties and things applied, then there’s usually an appeal or some kind of accountability mechanism for the people in authority. What is the accountability here at this airport management level? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. McLeod.

Madam Chair, the act is fairly clear on the accountability process. There are a number of ways to enforce a lot of the stuff; whether it’s through the enforcement officers or through the Minister’s authority. Also, we have to remember that a lot of these lands that fall under the airport jurisdiction also are within the city. We follow very closely with the zoning requirements. We also require our leases to have permits that are issued from the city. So we have a number of ways, checks and balances, that we ensure that the proper rules are followed.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m sorry; that’s not quite what I meant in asking the question. It is where the airport authority will set out certain rules and conditions and if I am found to be in violation, what mechanism, then, do I have to seek an appeal or have my side of the story heard? This is maybe where I’m not using the right word, but that’s what I meant by accountability. If we’re exercising authority here, then where is…Okay. I will continue to use the word “accountability.” Can the public have a way of testing, and probing, and challenging where it might be required of these authorities? That’s what I meant by accountability. Where is that mechanism? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. McLeod.

Madam Chair, I guess this is what we’re trying to resolve here with this new act. We’re trying to put an act in place that will cover a number of acts that we fall under that we’re not clear. In this new legislation, the rules are very clear; they’re spelled out how things should be operating. The duties fall under the airport managers to enforce. If that does not follow through, the appeal process would either go to the deputy minister or myself as a Minister, or whoever the Minister of the day is. The first stop would be through the airport manager, but failing that, of course, is the regular process of going to the deputy minister or the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Braden.

So then there is no established or procedural or formal manner of appeal or, as I say, challenge other than through the, if you will, the administrative route. There are no rules on that. I guess, given the range and the scope of authorities that are sought here, why isn’t there some kind of established route or mechanism by which I could seek redress, or appeal, or challenge something that I feel is not right? It needn’t be sophisticated, but something where I know, for instance, that I have a certain timeline. There is a definite place that I can go so that I know my case will be heard and it will get a reasonably timely treatment. Right now if my only avenue of appeal is to the deputy minister or the Minister, well, you know, that is very open ended. I couldn’t really place 100 percent of my trust in that. I’m looking for some kind of a mechanism that would help people have their case heard if they felt they were not getting fair treatment at the management level. Thank you.