Debates of February 6, 2006 (day 23)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, under special circumstances, especially for medical reasons, we will hold the person’s unit. If they have to go down south for treatment or whatnot, we will maintain those units. Again, the problem that we’re having, especially with the LHOs, is we just don’t have capacity for the number of people that are on our waiting lists. Roughly right now we have some 410 people on a waiting list to get into social housing. So because of the capacity issue, we’re not able to accommodate, but the LHOs do make the decisions in regards to working with the clients and in most cases try to work with them by way of trying to sit them down and work out a payment plan if they have arrears, or try to make them aware that they do have to work off some of those arrears where they will hire them either locally or whatnot or give them a paint brush and say here, work so many hours so that you’re able to work off your arrears. I think there’s ways that they’ve tried to work with their clients, but again, because the biggest challenge we have is just the number of people that are on waiting lists, that’s why we have such a shortage of not only houses, but also people that do get evicted or basically try to get back into the system, realize that you’re at the bottom of the list and that there’s other people ahead of you that are trying to get back into the system. So that’s the biggest challenge we are facing right now, is because of the number of people that are on waiting lists and also to try to find ways of working with the clients to work off their arrears and try to make them aware that they do have responsibilities to work with them to work out those arrangements. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for not running the clock out because I know he’d be very capable of doing that if he wanted to. Mr. Chairman, one other question, it has to do with the rent scale and it has to do with seniors. I mean, I am very supportive of seniors; they’ve worked hard, they’ve contributed to our communities, I do believe they deserve a break. However, when we talk about housing in the context of a crisis in the Northwest Territories, I want to know what’s happening with the housing rent scale for seniors. Right now, as the system stands, and I do not begrudge any senior taking advantage of this program, as a matter of fact, I’m almost 50 and in 10 years I’m going to be 60 and if the government still has this program out there where anybody, regardless of income or means or pension or anything else, can get free housing with the NWT, I’m sure you’re going to see…Baby boomers are coming up, you’re going to see a lot of uptake. As a matter of fact, we do see it happening now and, like I said, these 12 seniors’ duplexes that have just come up in Hay River are very nice little two-bedroom duplexes, but you have to understand there is no means test applied. So in fact, anybody 60 years or older can apply to live in there and if they’re accepted, they get it. Now I just don’t know how we reconcile that kind of support with what we keep calling the overcrowding and the severe shortage of housing. I don’t know how we reconcile that kind of investment in seniors’ units that we give for free regardless. It doesn’t matter if you sold your house to move in there; it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a government pension; it just doesn’t matter. You are in for free housing. Now, like I said, the people who are taking it up I absolutely understand why they’re doing it. I mean, it would be seriously tempting for anybody who could get a deal like that to take it. It’s not their fault. The government is offering it; they’re just stepping into that opportunity. But how do we rationalize that with our other demands on housing? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Member is quite right. The seniors’ subsidy for housing is almost $670,000 and I think that now has been devolved to the Department of Education through the social funding transfer in which we will now look at all social funds in one area and at that time, they will have to look at exactly the cost of these programs. Again, under the existing program they will have to go to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment for the subsidy, which presently we provide by way of the cost to us is $370,000. So those dollars will be coming out of the $30 million that will be transferred to Education, which will now be assessed through the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I’ve got Ms. Lee next. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple more questions on the Novel project. Industry contribution, once again then, could I just ask the Minister if there is any money, any amount budgeted for $297 million that would come from the ATCO in any way, because I thought for some reason that they were going to make some kind of contribution? Will they make any contribution in-kind, for example? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there will be no industry contributions. It will come out of the sale of the units. The number we’re working from is $230 million.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as much as I appreciate the information that was given to me through the answers to my written questions, when you read it closely it's quite surprising how little detail there is still for a project this big. I mean, we’re talking about a $297 million project that is supposed to provide over 1,400 homes and it’s a project where the Minister is stating that CMHC and Housing Canada is supposed to give $119 million and the GNWT is supposed to give $116 million. We’re talking really, really, really big money and I am surprised with the answers that the Minister gives about the fact that because this project is not going to happen until 2011, that comprehensive implementation plan and planning will take place and we have enough time to do that. I have to tell you that I do not agree with that. I cannot believe that the Minister was able to get a positive response and I don’t know what that means because we don’t have anything in writing. I cannot believe that he could get that with such little information. I would think that if a private business wanted to do a $300 million project and they’re asking the government to put in $120 million, you would think that you would need more information on the ground.

Mr. Chairman, one of the questions I asked was because the Minister stated in this House that he projected to put in 100 units a year because he thought that is how long it would take for the communities to develop the lots that are needed to put these units on. Simple math is 100 units a year, 1400 units, that would take 14 years. What would you do with these things while they are waiting around to be placed somewhere? The answer I got from the Minister is they have looked at it and now they have estimated that they could deliver 460 to 470 units per year. It just came out just like that. So I would like to give the Minister an opportunity to explain. What makes him think he could deliver 460 to 470 units per year? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have had quite a few people looking at this. This is not only coming from us. We have people at CMHC, the federal agency that looks at housing in Canada. We have had people from ATCO, ATCO Frontec, and also we have been working with communities to see exactly what lands are going to be available after the pipeline project is over. I believe that the Member is correct; this ain’t going to happen until 2011. We can’t make a commitment here on something that is going to happen possibly in the 17th Legislative Assembly. Because of that, the federal government can’t make a similar commitment at this time because it is future expenditures that will have to be made. So all we are doing, Mr. Chairman, is trying to find a price that we feel comfortable with, along with CMHC, so we feel we can deliver it under future program dollars once those dollars have been identified. So at this time, it’s not for me to say that we can make that commitment, because realistically we can’t.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am quoting from his answers to me on Return to Written Question 19-15(4). In the last question it says here that we…I am reading here because he did not answer my question. “We estimate that Novel home delivery and conversions will begin in 2011 and be completed by 2014.” So now we are looking at a three-year turnaround. It also states that, “We estimate delivering 460 to 470 per year.” This is an entirely new figure. Prior to this, we had been talking about the Housing Corporation possibly delivering 100 units per year and I think everyone -- and I am asking a pretty valid question here -- understands the complexities involved in finding lots. It’s not just about sending the workers out there and bulldozing down some flat lands so that trailers can go on it. Novel home, I am not supposed to call it a trailer.

There are lots of discussions from government to government to government and the relationships that have to happen. We also know about the recent example of the market housing initiative where the Housing Corporation has had difficulties delivering 24 units. If the Minister is indicating that he has had CMHC people look at it and community people look at it, can we look at it? What information does he have that gives him the confidence and the evidence to state that he can deliver 460 to 470 units per year, rather than 100 units per year? I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that his department had the information when he answered this question. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have offered to the Member to travel to Calgary to see this for herself. The offer is out there. It still stands. If she wants to take it, it’s there. The Member also has to realize that by 2011, the project will be completed. So you will have a lot of businesses that will be looking for additional work once the pipeline project has been concluded. Logistically, that’s why we are going into communities to identify with the communities what lands have to be developed and also where they want these Novel houses put. Also, we have to deal with MACA; we have to deal with the Power Corporation; we have to deal a lot with agencies within this government to deal with such a huge project that’s going to have implications throughout the whole Northwest Territories. I, for one, feel that once we get to that point and are able to do the total assessment between now and then and identify where those units will be put, how soon we can have those lands developed and how soon we can get that infrastructure in place, at that point we can see the timelines we are talking about. Under the existing scenario we put forward, we believe that we can deliver, based on the location of where these units are in the Inuvik region, the Sahtu region and the Nahendeh region, the distance between where they are going and the communities they are going into, that will be the logistical issue we have to work out. Because of the scenarios that we have thrown around the table, we figure that’s doable with regards to the 400 units in the time frame the Member mentioned.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, I did get an invitation to see the Novel project in Calgary and I don’t believe I need to see the site to make these arguments and ask for information. I do believe this project has to stand on its own. I would also extend an invitation to the Minister to come and visit my riding where I am sure there are at least 1,400 mobile homes already. My question is not, and has never been, about mobile homes. It’s not a question about whether ATCO units are suitable. I am sure they are very beautiful and adequate. I don’t have a problem with that. I want the Minister to be able to provide evidence that makes this project stand on its own and that the government is not being used as a lobbyist for a private industry, which I don’t believe is the right way to do these things. Mr. Chairman, he has not answered questions about what makes him think he can provide 460 to 470 units per year. He said I should go down and look at it, but I think the lots are located not in Calgary but in all our communities. All the questions that I asked about what the training opportunities are, what the business involvement opportunity for NWT businesses are, the Minister answers over and over again that those details are going to come later, prior to 2011. I don’t understand how he can be lobbying for this project without that information. I would like to know when will the Minister provide that information, and would he commit to this House that he will not be signing anything on the dotted line until he presents the total package to Members of this House that he’s going to commit for $297 million for the next 20 years at least? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

I would just like to clarify the Member’s numbers. There is no $290 million. We are talking about $90 million from the Government of the Northwest Territories, $90 million from the federal government and being able to sell out a portion of those units to generate $230 million. I don’t know where the $290 million number comes from that the Member is throwing around. Again, it will have to be worked out by way of planning and good planning in order for us to be able to deliver this. The cost to the Government of the Northwest Territories is $90 million, which will be matched by the federal government. We will not take these units on until after the project has been completed. At that point, we will then take ownership of those units once we have negotiated a price that we feel that we want to be able to afford. The issue that has to be realized here is the question of affordability. For us and CMHC, we are able to deliver houses to people at a low cost which is affordable and also that we are able to have people move into these homes who can’t afford to pay the mortgage. The way it sits now, no one can afford a $300,000 modular home that is being sold in the Northwest Territories, but they can afford a $100,000 home which will be sold out of this proposal, so economically viable to the individuals who are going to move in there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. McLeod next. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like my colleagues, I have concerns with Novel, too. I think it’s a good concept, but I think the Housing Corporation should have been working with ITI and MACA trying to come up with a good plan and Housing can look after the technical part of it. However, my questions are with regard to the Supported Lease Program. I notice there is 112 units in the Minister’s opening statement towards the Supported Lease Program. I would like the Minister to explain what the program is and which group of clients it’s aimed at. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the whole idea of the Supported Lease Program is to get individuals who have been social clients for a number of years and get people into owning their first home. Through the Supported Lease Program, they lease the unit for two years and pay the costs we would have had to pay, the operational costs, and also ensuring that they are able to maintain the unit over two years. Once we’ve gone through that two-year period, we sit down with the client and work with them to go to the bank and get a mortgage through EDAP, so that we are able to get individuals into homeownership and allow them an opportunity to own a home and what responsibilities you have as a homeowner.

So the idea of the Supported Lease Program is to get people into homeownership by way of a lease arrangement and work with them to do the transition from being a lessee to being a homeowner. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Of the $32 million the Minister mentioned in his opening statement, I would like to know how much of that is going towards the 112 units. I am getting the feeling that this is starting to sound like another subsidy program. It almost appears to me like a second tier public housing type deal. I want to know from the Minister how this is affecting, or if this is affecting, the other programs that the Housing Corporation runs. I am sure they had a program called the Independent Housing Program, which was almost along the same lines. It just seems like they are duplicating and creating a second tier of social housing. What is going to happen to these clients after the two years if they have proven that they can’t look after the units? Do you bring another one in there for another two years? If they can’t maintain the unit, will they bring another one in there for another two years? All we are doing is just subsidizing again every couple of years, just like public housing does now. There were a few questions in there and I would appreciate a response from the Minister. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the idea of the program is to get people into actually paying the operational costs of those units, so they will be responsible for paying the power costs, the utility costs, and ensure they realize there is a cost associated with homeownership. That is the portion they will have to be paying for two years. Once they have gone through that process for the two years, at that point if they want to buy the unit outright, they will continue to pay the utility costs and then become homeowners. The problem we are having with the transition from moving people from social housing to access housing -- and I know the Member touched on it -- we are sort of setting these people up in social housing. We pay the monthly rent, but you don’t really understand what the cost to operate that unit is until you move into your home. A year later, you find out you just weren’t ready for the costs to operate a home. I think through the idea of a Supported Lease Program, we are hoping to be able to deliver that. We also realize that this will be an application-based program to find the clients we feel will meet that criteria and are ready to move into these programs.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister missed a few of my questions. I asked how much of the $32 million is going towards this program and if it was affecting the other programs the Housing Corporation runs. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Minister.

We are looking at 108 units; roughly about $19.9 million.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. McLeod.

So $19.9 million. That answers one question. The second question was, is this going to affect the other programs the Housing Corporation runs because it’s another subsidy? I am all for people getting into their own homes, but if you know you can’t maintain a home, it just seems to be one program set up after another. EDAP, as far as I am concerned, is a pretty good program where people will go to the bank and get the money. If you know you can’t maintain the home, why bother going to apply? The Housing Corporation is going to recoup some of their money out of this instead of just providing another subsidy and a second layer of public housing, because if they don’t qualify for a mortgage, do they move into public housing? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this will be an application-based program where we will screen the application, identify which clients we feel meet the program. One of the things we are seeing is we are hearing a lot of complaints from people who are in social housing who are paying the high end of the rate scale. Because of that, they don’t seem to be getting any further ahead with the amount of money they are paying on rent. Because of that, we are trying to free up some social housing and get those people who are paying at the high end of the rent scale into homeownership. Yes, we have had experiences where people have gone into a housing program where they had to give the unit back to the Housing Corporation. With this program, we see that there is a mechanism for them to continue to maintain the home by continuing to pay the utility costs. Once we feel that they have the abilities to pay a mortgage, then, at that point, we allow them to get into a mortgage. It’s for people under the EDAP program we have now who are eligible to go to the bank and get a mortgage. So this will supplement that program.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. People in social housing who are paying the high end of the rent scale are people who I hear about who want to get into EDAP, but they can’t because they make too much. Now we are talking about starting a whole new subsidy program, another layer of public housing. So it doesn’t seem that that is the group this is geared for. I will ask my final question again; will this affect the other programs that the Housing Corporation offers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this program is there to try to catch those people who are in a situation where they may have arrears. They are not able to pay down those arrears in order to get into EDAP or be able to go to a bank because they have a bad credit rating. So we want to be able to work with them to be able to get them back on their feet and assist them with a payment plan and allow them to move into these units, paying the utility costs for the two-year period and then be able to get them on their feet to purchase the unit outright through EDAP, or go to the bank and get a mortgage. It’s a transitional period for housing for individuals to get into these types of programs.

Also, we will be providing counselling to these individuals with regard to the services that we do provide. We’ll also work with them to be able to secure a bank loan with the client and the banks to be able to make them access these programs. There are a lot of barriers that a lot of individuals that have had, for one reason or another, who are in social housing; but in order to break that cycle, you have to try something new. This is the idea of this new program; to try something that we feel will be able to get those people into homeownership and out of social housing.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There’s been a lot of good questions to the Minister here today. I think what we should be doing is grabbing hammers and building units. But anyway…

Hear! Hear!

Mr. Chairman, earlier, the Minister indicated that there are 33 units being shipped on the winter roads. Is that correct? Out of the 118.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we have ordered 33 packages for housing to get to the communities over the winter road. It’s 33.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What happens to the others? Are they coming out of the 118 units we’re talking about now? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.