Debates of February 6, 2006 (day 23)

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mrs. Groenewegen next. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’d like to ask the Minister, when I brought up the seniors’ rent scale in my last set of questions, he indicated that there’s going to be a change soon and that seniors who are living in public housing are going to be now making application through income support and ECE and their income is going to be assessed. Is that what I should understand? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I was stating is that now the elder, whoever’s in social housing, will have to go to income support to get verification in regards to the amount of subsidies they will receive by way of the new social income program that’s going to be managed through Education, Culture and Employment. So they will determine how many subsidies they do receive and exactly how that would be determined. From there, then we basically just charge what the amount of the economic rate is going to be for that unit to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now I’m really confused. ECE is going to charge income support clients their housing rents based on economic rates for the unit that they’re occupying. They’re going to be paying their rent to ECE now? You have to spell this out for me. Maybe like Mr. Handley was characterizing Mr. Braden the other day, maybe, never mind maybe. When it comes to this I’m very slow. I can’t figure out what you’re talking about. Is the seniors’ housing rents going to change in the next while based on income? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

No.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

What was the answer? I didn’t even hear it.

No.

The answer was no. Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. So when I was bringing up the issue that there is no means test applied to seniors occupying public housing units in that last set of questions, and I asked how we -- and again, through no fault of the seniors, but it’s a government program -- how do we rationalize that to the fact that we are saying that we have a critical housing shortage everywhere, and yet we will continue to build and offer seniors’ units for zero rent? When I asked that question, I was given some answer that had something to do with ECE and assessments and subsidies. So now what does ECE have to do with it? If your rent is free, why do you have to go to income support at ECE? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we will be allocating an economic rent for that unit the individual is in. So the individual will now have to go to ECE to get the subsidy, which will determine what that rate is. From there, ECE will pay the rent for that senior.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So the ECE will pay the economic rent of that unit, based on the fact that the person is over 60 and they are a senior regardless of any other information provided in terms of income? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

I think this question is probably better answered by the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. We’ll go to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Minister Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As of April 1st there will be no change in rents for people in social housing. So those people who are in social housing as of April 1st, 2006, will see absolutely no change. However, the whole income security policy is under review and we expect by sometime later this year to come forward to the Legislative Assembly with some changes that are proposed to the policy. It would be premature, at this point, to say what those changes might be, or where the impacts might be.

Thank you, Minister Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then, Mr. Chairman, in view of people who are currently making decisions to, you know, sell their homes, forfeit their existing living accommodations to move into public housing units, which at this time are not costing them anything regardless of their income, would it not be fair on the part of the government to advise these people that perhaps there are changes coming, maybe the subsidy will become taxable income, maybe there will be a charge assessed for rent, those kinds of things that could be coming? Because people are making decisions based, right now, on free rent. I’m sure that’s not a really hard decision to make in a lot of instances, but would it be fair and prudent to advise them of things potentially to come? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. I’ll go to Minister Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There’s been no secret that Education, Culture and Employment has embarked on a review of income security programs. I made statements on that in the last session. We have been very upfront about it. We have a process of consultation that’s taking place all across the Northwest Territories right now. In that whole process, we’re reviewing all of our income security programs. So it’s not just one program; it’s all of them. We haven’t got any plans yet for changes. What we’re doing is looking at them, talking to people, asking for advice as to where people think we should be going with our programs, and then we’ll come back and discuss with Members, in particular of the Standing Committee on Social Programs, but all Members, any proposed changes. We don’t expect it will be in a process where changes are going to happen very quickly. This sort of initiative takes some time to make sure that you’ve got it right and then to implement correctly, as well.

Thank you, Minister Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the subject that was raised with respect to the rent supplement contracts, some negotiated, some 20 years in length to encourage private sector involvement in providing public housing, some at rates that are higher than market rate in market communities, the Minister said he would look at those in terms of some of them having five-year terms. Some of them were set up as four, five-year terms, that I do know. Now the Minister said he’s going to go back and assess and see if there is a way of perhaps signing off on some of those contracts. I know it’s difficult because, obviously, they were provided as public housing and there are people occupying them, but if enough advanced warning is provided, maybe alternatives to these higher costs could be provided. So my question is, he says he’s going to assess them, he’s going to look at the terms and conditions of them and see if there’s a way of just measuring whether we’re getting value for money on them. Could we reasonably expect that that assessment will be shared with Members of this Assembly prior to the end of February? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Minister Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will see about getting back to the Member with that information at the end of February, probably March, but I will make an attempt to look at these and see exactly which ones are up for review in five years or whatever, and also exactly what the costs associated with the terms of these are, and also the length of time that those leases are out there for.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is not the first time I’ve raised this issue and it’s good to know that the Minister is now going to have a look at them and assess them. But I raised this issue with the Minister and his staff not so long ago. I want to know, since I raised it with them last time, have there been any renewals exercised for five-year terms? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

I couldn’t answer the Member’s question, but the last lease that we did enter into was in 1998, which was almost seven years ago.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

The last lease entered into in 1998, Mr. Chairman, doesn’t mean anything. Maybe there was one entered into in 1995 that was for 20 years. We’ve all seen the chart. I mean, that’s not the point when the last rent supp…I know rent supp was kind of the flavour of the day for a while, and of course there haven’t been any just lately, but I’m talking about the ones that were entered into that were 20-year contracts based on five-year renewal periods. That’s what I’m talking about. Have any of those five-year terms been signed on in the last two months? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that most of these leases are locked in for the term of the lease, but there is an escalation rate that is in there that we do based on the escalation rate that they are able to move on that, but my understanding is that these are locked in leases for the term of the lease. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I’ve got Mr. Braden next. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We were exchanging some views about the mandate of the Housing Corporation in my last turn, and there was a discussion about some of the commitments and the paperwork that’s on record regarding the evolution of this project. Mr. Chairman, I pointed out at least one of several documents dating back to April of 2004, which outlined the work plan for doing this. If I recall the Minister’s words, he said it was something I pulled out of my hat. It is not something I pulled out of my hat, Madam Chair. It is a document that the corporation circulated for committee to help us become familiar with what was going on. It was done under his watch. I wanted to put that on the record. Something that is essential to committee being able to do its business is to be able to rely on the paper trail, and the records of decision, and briefings that are presented to us.

Again, I don’t want to get into a war of words, but this was not something that I pulled out of my hat. It is a very legitimate part of this issue. Where I would like to go with this, Madam Chair, is to find out what today is the status of the task of redefining the mandate of the NWT Housing Corporation. What is on the books now? What can committee expect and what can the public expect as far as at least being involved or having access to the redefinition of our Housing Corporation or, in broader terms, Madam Chair, what should this government be doing to satisfy its mandate and the needs of its people to supply adequate, safe and affordable housing?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, like I mentioned earlier, there has been a committee struck made up of people from the Department of Executive. Also we have people who are responsible for strategic planning, and my department will also be involved. We are trying to get a view for the public with regard to where we are going with our mandate, but, more importantly, get input from the stakeholders we have out there and also from the local housing authorities and also with regard to the people here in this Legislature to ensure that the mandate we have put forward is the right direction we are going and also realizing we will have to come back to a standing committee. I am hoping, like I stated, that the committee will report back possibly at the end of May so we can have something ready to debate in the June session.

So that is the time frame we are looking at. Again, we are looking for input from the stakeholders that also includes the MLAs, the committees and the LHOs and the staff of the corporation with regard to where we are going. Again, there has been an independent committee struck. We were directed by the Premier to get out there and get this review done. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This new committee process, under whose direction is it operating and to what level will our government be reporting, Madam Chair?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will refer this question to the Premier.

To who? Oh, the Premier. Thank you. Mr. Premier.

Madam Chair, the committee will be reporting to me as Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Does the Premier then concur with the information that the Minister has provided, that we should be anticipating something by this spring?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The committee will be going out and getting input from all stakeholders in the Territories, including Members of this Legislative Assembly. The work of the committee is to be completed by May 15th. Thank you, Madam Chair.