Debates of June 1, 2005 (day 6)

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as the process unfolded and the Minister had come forward with this plan and one other department had declared this space as not being used in the future for government purposes and looking at the plans, at that point the plan had come forward to change communities for the Territorial Treatment Centre. On the basis of the information provided to us, we reviewed it and had approved the plan to proceed. On that basis, we have now come forward with the plan and are asking for approval of this Assembly in moving those dollars. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, my questions are also to the Minister of Finance and it is not in regard to an item before the Committee of the Whole, but in regard to the budget for 2004-05 which has passed. It is in regard to the money for TTC. Madam Speaker, it is only yesterday, I believe, I finally figured out that the money that this Assembly had voted on, as Mr. Braden had stated, $2.4 million was in fact not spent. It was last November that the government started looking at the possibility of moving this. My general question is how do we as MLAs have any confidence that the money we vote for, for a capital project for something as big as $2.4 million, is going to stay there and get done as it was meant to be? How could a Member for Nahendeh be confident that if he ever managed to get money for the gym in his small community -- for granny from Nahanni…

Ever.

…how could he ever be certain that thing is going to be built and that the government is not going to just put it off and just let it lapse and then change its mind? How can we do our jobs in that way? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Good.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse Of Allocated Funding For GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the budget as it's laid out and is brought before this House and voted upon gives the government the authority to spend the money on the projects identified. If those projects do not proceed in a timely fashion, then we come back to this Assembly and in the form of a supplementary appropriation to record the amount of capital carryovers for O and M money that was not used in the fiscal year it was identified and we request the carryover. That happens on an annual basis. One of the first bills we bring before this House in a supplementary document is capital carryovers because for one reason or another, whether it is delay in the planning or a change in the scope of the project or not being able to find a contractor that will do the job with the dollars identified, the project gets delayed and we have to seek approval from this Assembly to carry that money over for those projects. That happens on a regular basis.

As well, in this particular project, when this money was identified and carried over from past years, it was, I believe, at that point known that there were other facilities being looked at as possible areas to move this centre into. One of those would have been the Somba K'e facility that is on the outskirts of Yellowknife. The department was looking at other possible locations already to try and see if it could come up with a facility that would work. As this opportunity it had come available, the department had looked at that and has done some feasibility work in that area and has brought it forward. On that basis, we have accepted it and are now again coming before this Assembly for approval for moving the dollars. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 74-15(4): Lapse Of Allocated Funding For GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I learned via some people in the TTC that apparently DPW came by and poked about 82 holes in this building and never really came back and told them what was right or wrong with this building. In the meantime, the political masters are trying to figure out what to do with this.

I would like to state, Madam Speaker, when we are debating the budget in this House, Ministers fight tooth and nail for every dollar. Members on this side cannot change anything. They convince us that they need this; the sky will fall if it just doesn't get approved. Then we get told a year later we never spent it. There were all sorts of reasons why we could not spend it and we want to change it. Does the Minister, as the Minister responsible for public financing, think that that is the right way to approve and spend expenditures in this Assembly? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Finance. That question borders on asking your opinion about processes and policies that are already in place with respect to financial administration, but I will let you answer the question.

Further Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse Of Allocated Funding For GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I guess to stick to the process, we have followed the rules that are in place. From time to time the Ministers' departments have need to change the plan that has been presented before the House and it has to come back to this House for approval. At this stage, a political decision has been made and agreed to, but now to move the actual dollars we need the approval of this House. We’re following the rules that are set out and we’re seeking the approval of this Assembly. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’m glad to see that the Minister is straightforward enough to admit that this was a political decision, because I was thinking that listening to the Minister’s answers. Of course there will be situations where capital projects cannot proceed. We could miss the barge deadline, we could have all sorts of administrative and logistical problems where the construction cannot proceed, but I don’t think people out there are happy to see a capital project being moved around for political reasons. Even if the government spends $5,000 over, they have to report to us. Would the Minister consider changing the rules so that there cannot be under-expenditure or lapsing of money for as much as 2.4 million? Maybe the limit should be $500,000 and if you don’t spend it, you lose it. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Roland.

Further Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I think in this arena and on the floor of this House we would be silly to say that decisions made in this House were not political ones. That is the nature of the environment we are in and decisions are made based on departments bringing forward substantiation for it. As for changing the rules to only limit $500,000 for being lapsed or carried over and lapsing the rest, we’d find ourselves in the situation we are today. As the year ended, that money would have lapsed. We would have to come forward; the departments would have to come forward for substantiation of a new project. In fact, in this particular case, the substantiation will go forward as we go into the next business plan rounds and budget development because it is, again, future years, but the initial planning money is being asked for through the supplementary appropriation document from this House. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think it’s absolutely appalling, Madam Speaker, that the Minister would say that for political reasons, not even in this House but on the Cabinet table, that they could move a capital project as big as $2.4 million for political reasons. I’d like to ask the Minister of Finance, as a Finance Minister in charge of numbers, whether he’s asked for any information in making his decision about what extra costs would be for the government in moving this program. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister Roland.

Further Return To Question 74-15(4): Lapse of Allocated Funding for GNWT Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as any Minister would bring forward, if it is the request, the approval of dollars would come to the FMB table if it is approval seeking direction, other than that it would go to the Cabinet table. In this case this has come to both. The information provided by the Minister requesting this was to proceed with this track and it was granted on the basis of then going forward and getting the approvals of this Assembly through the financial process, and that’s what we’re into right now. Thank you.

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. My question today is to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. It is in regard to an issue that has been really important in the community of Lutselk’e and has been brought forward to the Minister in the past number of years with regard to dust control…

---Laughter

…the control and the level of dust in Lutselk’e. Now the dust bowl that is created in the community of Lutselk’e, because of the prevailing summer winds and the landscape in the East Arm area, makes for a perfect spot where the community is that you can see it when you are flying over there. Just the amount of dust that gets raised from a simple breeze coming off the lake, and people in the community have a lot of health issues with respect to dust control with the seniors and the children too. I just want to ask the Minister since there is no dedicated funding provided to the community of Lutselk’e in their O and M budget to curb the dust control problem that they have there, and it is up to the community to determine the appropriate amounts to spend out of their O and M budgets on dust control and I’m sure the community would spend all of their budget on dust control if they had that option available to them, but then they would have no money for other essential services in the community. Can the Minister answer the question of when will the report on best practices for dust control in the NWT be available to the House? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod.

Return To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the document is completed. We have not had an opportunity to sit down and review the findings. As soon as we have that opportunity, I will be pleased to share that with the Members of this House. I’m anticipating that to be sometime next week. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s good to know that the report has been completed and that the department will be reviewing it. I guess just based on the findings of the report I know there’s going to be some communities that will have really severe dust levels that have been reported in the report; other communities not so bad. I want to know what measure the department is going to take. When they review the report, are they going to include extra funding to the communities that have really high levels of dust during the summer months? How is the department going to address the issue? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister McLeod.

Further Return To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Madam Speaker, it’s difficult to respond to that question. I don’t know what the options or the solutions are that the contractor is recommending at this point. The issue of dust is a serious concern in all the communities across the North. Whether it is a large centre or a small centre, it’s an issue that we need to be able to deal with. We’d like to be able to look at the findings and respond accordingly. If there’s a need for additional resources to implement some of these programs, then we’d certainly look at that and include it in our plan for next year or if there is any avenue to include it with some new dollars that may come forward. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I guess the whole issue is getting down to the dollars and cents. I just want to make sure that the Minister is acknowledging the fact that there are some communities that have severe levels of dust, and other communities aren’t so bad. I want to make sure that the Minister is going to prioritize communities that have a severe problem where issues have been coming forward to this House year after year with respect to the high levels of dust around there and to this day really nothing has been done. So I just want to make sure that the Minister is well aware that Lutselk’e should be put on a high priority list, because I think it has one of the highest levels of dust in the NWT. With regard to that, I want to ask the Minister when is Lutselk’e slated to get their main street chipsealed to kind of alleviate a little bit of this dust problem? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister McLeod.

Further Return To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I certainly can’t agree with the Member’s comments that we haven’t done anything on dust control. The responsibility for dust control is built into the community government formula allocation. That’s part of their responsibilities for operations. Dust control is factored in. So each community has included in their budget some dollars for dust suppression. We’ve also undertaken to provide a main street chipsealing program that has been in the works for several years now. We have a long list of communities. I don’t have it in front of me, but I would be pleased to provide that to the Member. We have undertaken to do a study in all the different communities on the different ways that we can deal with the dust issue and that information will come forward. We’ll certainly give strong consideration to the Member’s riding when we put together a plan of action and that’s something that we will be doing. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Maybe I’m getting conflicting information here, but I’ve got a note here, Madam Speaker, that is right from the Minister’s office that says unfortunately there is no dedicated funding provided to Lutselk’e for dust control. So I don’t know where the Minister is getting the idea that it’s built into their O and M budget, because he’s saying right here that there’s no dedicated funding in O and M for dust control for Lutselk’e and it’s up to the community to spend whatever it feels is appropriate out of their O and M budget, which makes no specific reference for dust control dollars. So maybe the Minister can provide me with some better breakdown of the O and M budget and show me how much money the community has at its leisure to spend on dust control and how much the government would allow them to spend. If the Minister can provide that, I’d surely love to see those numbers. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Minister McLeod.

Further Return To Question 75-15(4): Dust Control Practices For The NWT

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Member is correct; there is no budget line that states an amount earmarked for dust control. Dust control is factored in as part of the formula and that money comes forward as a block fund. We do not tell the communities how to spend their money. If Lutselk’e wants to spend their money on dust control or a recreation officer, that’s up to them to put the priority and investment where they see fit. We don’t tell the communities how to invest their money. We want the communities to make their own decisions, and if that money is not spent, in this case as the Member has indicated, on dust control, that’s not something we can direct the communities to do or intervene with. That is the community’s decision. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, on March 9th I submitted a written question to the Minister of Housing in regard to information about the EDAP program. The reasoning behind that is because there is an urban legend out there about crazy amounts being given to people. On April 7th I had a great response from the Minister referring to the area I was specifically asking about, which was Yellowknife. It pointed out many detailed pieces of information in Yellowknife. All along I’ve been asking about the transparency issue and why are we giving such large dollars to so few. That’s all I’ve been asking, that’s strictly the point. I’ve been waiting for that information about the transparency to justify those large dollars to, again, so few. So that letter came under signature from the Minister, yet I’m hearing out there in the media that this information is incorrect. So I’ve been asking these questions for over a week and no one has come down to my office, which is 200 feet away from the Minister’s office, to tell me that there were some errors or possibly clerical errors in this information.

Madam Speaker, this affects my work here in the House, it affects the process. So, Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister is, is the letter addressed on April 7th absolutely correct and if there are some small clerical errors in this, would the Minister be willing to update this to the most accurate information as possible if any errors were made whatsoever? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 76-15(4): Accuracy Of Information Provided By The NWTHC

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I have checked back with the corporation to look at the numbers that have been mentioned in this House and I was made aware by the department that there has been errors in the numbers that were entered. Basically they use a code system and the code that was used was for new construction in regard to EDAP housing. After checking into it, there has been no new construction for EDAP housing in Yellowknife since the year 2000. So because there has been no new construction for new EDAP housing, that is the error in the information that was provided to the Member. I have looked into that and I was hoping to have a chance to sit down with the Member and discuss this, but apparently he released the information. So I am stating it here. I am doing an interview with the media to make them clear that that information was a clerical error where it was put into the wrong category using the wrong entry code for that information. So there is no new EDAP construction dollars for Yellowknife in those years prior to the year 2000.

Thank you, Minister Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 76-15(4): Accuracy Of Information Provided By The NWTHC

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I want to applaud the Minister for clarifying that because no one is above making an error, and certainly a clerical error could happen to anyone out there, and I’m certainly not perfect myself. That being said, this whole issue about the transparency of this program, I’m still trying to get justification as to why we give such large grants to so few. So, Madam Speaker, I ask the question to the Minister, why are we giving such large grants to so few and would he provide those details of transparency so we can move forward on this issue? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Krutko.

Further Return To Question 76-15(4): Accuracy Of Information Provided By The NWTHC

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I would just like to remind the Member that we do have to ensure that we follow up the ATIPP confidential information, not to disclose information that is classified as confidential or of a personal nature. So I would just like to remind the Member we cannot provide information that is confidential or basically has a disclosure on those contractual agreements or mortgages that are in place. There’s certain information that cannot be released to Members.

Just in regard to the Member’s question, Madam Speaker, I tried to explain this the last number of days. The whole idea of EDAP was to assist people to move from public housing into home ownership. It’s for those people who are social clients. Once they get a job and are able to sustain themselves and they can show that they are paying their rent and they are able to maintain some sort of home ownership, then we basically move to those clients. The first offers were supposed to be given to those clients. So I would just like to mention to the Member that it may seem to be a little high, but it’s based on where you require a house. So I think it is important that we realize that the whole EDAP program was originally intended for low income people and a decision was made three years ago to allow communities such as Yellowknife, Inuvik and Hay River to expand a little more for those people looking for down payment assistance to get a first mortgage because the cost of development was so high they could not afford it. The whole intent of the program is to assist people with low incomes, get them out of public housing and be able to get them into home ownership. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 76-15(4): Accuracy Of Information Provided By The NWTHC

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’ll recognize the Minister’s passion for getting people out of public housing into personal home ownership but before we move on too far, I would like to hear from the Minister because we did talk about that $109,000. If the Minister could clarify exactly when they realized when there was a clerical error and why they didn’t come down to my office immediately to clarify this, because this has been an issue out there for a week. A lot of people are very concerned about this. So when did this information come forward to the Minister that the letter he had sent to me under his signature had a clerical error and why they didn’t come and clarify this with me immediately? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Krutko.

Further Return To Question 76-15(4): Accuracy Of Information Provided By The NWTHC

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I took the information two days ago to the people at the Housing Corporation and asked them for clarification on the information that was mentioned in this House in regard to numbers that were mentioned by the Member. During that time, that is when they made it clear to me that those dollars were not expended in Yellowknife for new construction in regard to EDAP. So it’s a matter of the information getting back to the Member. I was in the process because I know that there is a confidential matter now that we have to consider that not having this information revealed to the public, which could jeopardize our ATIPP responsibilities to ensure we protect the interests and the information. It is private and I cannot release it to anyone who may have it out there in the public. So that was a concern that we had. We wanted to make sure that we were aboveboard and we were not breeching any responsibilities that we have. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. A brief final supplementary and a brief answer. We have more people on the list and we have only made it through eight sets of questions in the last hour. Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 76-15(4): Accuracy Of Information Provided By The NWTHC

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I didn’t get satisfaction on the answer. Why didn’t the Minister, if he identified there was a mistake or a clerical error in the information, rush down to my office or send a note down to say there was a small mistake and we pause this issue for one moment until we get clear absolute numbers? Why didn’t I get that note on Monday if he says it appeared two days ago? Why didn’t he slow the process down, because I certainly would have given him the gracious opportunity to get the absolute number? Why didn’t he come speak to me about that? Thank you, Madam Speaker.