Debates of June 2, 2006 (day 4)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions this morning are for Mr. Krutko as the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation and the arrangements of the negotiations for the Novel project.

Mr. Speaker, I share the optimism of this Assembly that this very innovative program can play a major part in helping us solve our very, very chronic housing situation. But like some of my colleagues, I have some considerable concerns about the business deal and the degree of risk and exposure that the GNWT is undertaking in this.

Mr. Speaker, it is quite apparent that the negotiation is very fluid and we still don’t know exactly what is on the table for us to decide on or make a commitment to. My question, Mr. Speaker, relates to exactly that, the confidence that we should have in the calibre and the quality of this deal. So I would like to know from the Minister, is he prepared to allow the proposal, once it's finalized, to undergo a vigorous independent review for all relevant aspects that can be released to the Members of this Assembly and to the public, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is an ongoing negotiating process and I think people are missing the boat here. The negotiations that are going on are between the Mackenzie Pipeline Group and the people who are going to provide the product for workforce housing. It will go through a tendering process. What we are suggesting is that they consider the ability to convert these workforce camps into housing at the end of the day. Right now, the only company in Canada that has a patent on that idea is ATCO. So we are asking the pipeline company or the Mackenzie Pipeline Group to consider this as an option when they put out a bid for this product. Right now, we don’t know who is going to win that bid. It hasn’t gone out yet. When we know exactly where the federal commitment will come in, by way of their $75 million, without that, we will not succeed.

We are in a negotiation process. There are ongoing discussions between the component, which is Imperial Oil, the Mackenzie Pipeline Group and ATCO Structures to look at possibly providing this product for the construction of a pipeline. Again, Mr. Speaker, it is an ongoing process. We have been keeping Members informed through the presentation we gave yesterday to the Social Programs committee and we will continue to do that. As things change, we will keep Members informed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Okay. Thank you. The Minister did a great job of confirming everything that I said in my introduction here, but the question was once we get to the point, as the GNWT…The Minister is going to be bringing a request for an allocation to us for a commitment for tens, and potentially for the long run, hundreds of millions of dollars. I am going to want to know that that is a solid deal and I am going to want independent analysis. Will the Minister enable that to happen before he comes to this Assembly to seek authorization for those commitments; an independent analysis, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, right now, with regard to the process, we do have FMBS, which is responsible for the financial…(inaudible)...from this government ensuring that any expenditures made by this government are aboveboard and within cost. CMHC, which is a federal agency, is also involved in this and they also want to ensure that accountability is there and that it is within the investment that they make and the cost they provide. So we are already doing that through the reviews and also the committees that have been established to oversee the project, which includes CMHC, ourselves and FMBS on our team. It provides us that ability as we go forward. We are not going into this blindfolded. Every step of the way, we want to ensure at the end of the day if we make any investment, that that investment that we make is exactly the cost we can afford. The other thing is we want a product that will meet the needs of the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, another aspect that I will continue to seek satisfaction on before this project gets my approval is that through it we really take on some leadership and some vision in our housing agenda, Mr. Speaker, and use this to create a sustained housing industry for the Northwest Territories. Between this project and the Affordable Housing Strategy, we are talking $300 million, something in the neighbourhood of over 1,200 housing units created here. How is it that we have not yet seen how we can use this as a springboard for the creation of a true housing industry in the Northwest Territories, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what this is going to do by the way of Novel conversions in the Northwest Territories. We are going to invest $150 million of this $200 million investment in the Northwest Territories; $150 million. It’s going to generate 660 person hours of work in the Northwest Territories. We are going to have people trained and employed to do the work in those communities. We are looking at building capacity in communities by allowing those communities to have more infrastructure in their communities and, at the end of the day, promote healthy living and accommodate the housing shortages we have in the Northwest Territories. Again, over two-thirds of this investment is going to be expended in the Northwest Territories. I think that’s the part that is key to this proposal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Right. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, the Minister doesn’t see this from my perspective. We may end up with a lot of people trained in conversions and some aspects of how to look after and fix or convert a house. I am talking about something on the ground here, so that we are not exporting our manufacturing jobs to Calgary, that we are keeping them here in the Northwest Territories. That’s what I mean by an industry, Mr. Speaker. That’s what I am looking for. Will we use this as a springboard to create our own industry?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 40-15(5): Value Of Convertible Workforce Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, if anything, this is going to add to the existing investment that we are making for the 500 houses over the next three years going forward. It’s a perfect opportunity for the industries in the Northwest Territories, the manufacturing industry, the contracting business and also for the residents of the Northwest Territories to realize there are real job opportunities going forward with the investment and the efforts we are putting into housing in the Northwest Territories over the next 10 years. With regard to all these efforts we are putting forward, if anything, it’s going to better the lives of the people of the Northwest Territories and in our small communities. That is the group we are directing this to. So, Mr. Speaker, this is a perfect opportunity for those industries to form partnerships with communities with the different industries out there to make sure we take advantage of this $150 million investment.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. My questions are going to be directed to the Honourable David Krutko, Minister of Housing, with respect to the Affordable Housing Strategy that’s going to be rolling out in the next three years. Having worked here and lived here in Yellowknife for quite a number of years myself, I just don’t really see the real need for more public housing in Yellowknife because the public housing units here, there are not many people pounding on their doors or phoning their MLAs everyday, as they are in the smaller communities, to raise public housing issues and the need for public housing. I understand that Yellowknife is going to be receiving 62 units out of this Affordable Housing Strategy. Many of those are going to be public housing units and that at $180,000 per unit, that’s just over $11 million that the government is going to be putting into their Affordable Housing Strategy here in Yellowknife, which has a thriving housing market, which has a lot of people employed and making good money, which has a lot of financial institutions willing to lend out money even to people in the lower income bracket. I think that $11 million could be spent where it is better needed in the smaller communities, or it could go into a transient centre, a treatment centre or even a women’s shelter here in Yellowknife where it would be well received. Have they really looked at why they want to spend $11 million on affordable housing in Yellowknife where there is lots of housing, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 41-15(5): Affordable Housing Strategy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the investment we are looking at making in Yellowknife over the next number of years is to replace a lot of our public housing in Yellowknife and be able to put more seniors’ housing on the ground by way of seniors' facilities for Yellowknife. That is the area that we are looking at. Again, the housing for Yellowknife is basically to replace the existing housing stock we have here in Yellowknife.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 41-15(5): Affordable Housing Strategy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With the latest briefings that we did receive from the Minister, all of these housing units, there are a lot of single detached units, single family condos, multi-family condos, but there are 62 units that still equates to $11 million that the government is going to put into the housing market here in Yellowknife. Is that going to disrupt the current market housing framework here in Yellowknife? Are prices for houses suddenly going to go up? Are they going to go down? Has the government even looked at what the ramifications are going to be in the larger centres like Norman Wells, Hay River or Fort Smith where there are 167 units going to be going into these market housing communities? There already is a market there. Has the government really looked at what kind of disruption they are going to create? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 41-15(5): Affordable Housing Strategy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again, we do have a lot of housing authorities, especially in Yellowknife. We have the YK Housing Authority. We have the North Slave Housing Authority. We are working with those agencies in which they have come to us with their needs. They identified these areas that they need to continue to build on for their residents in Yellowknife. I think, because of the housing demands also in Yellowknife, especially for social housing, because these are for social housing clients that we want to address those people in Yellowknife and not to compete against the private sector by way of the condos and whatnot that are out there. We are basically going forward on the requests that were made from the Yellowknife local housing authorities in regards to their requests. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. A short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 41-15(5): Affordable Housing Strategy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know that a lot of LHOs around the NWT say their needs are so and so, but basically they just want to be treated fair and equitable with other communities of the NWT. Everybody wants their fair share. That is understandable. I want to mention to the Minister, with this housing authority, I don’t see people pounding on the Yellowknife Housing Authority’s door to ask for more public housing. If I see an ad in the paper for rent, like subsidized public housing, in the newspaper, I know it is for information only but it is also advertising that, hey, we have public housing available. Come and ask us. Just with that point there, Mr. Speaker, sometimes that need is kind of taken a little bit too top heavy. We have to address it. Is the Minister going to revisit those needs? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 41-15(5): Affordable Housing Strategy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again, we are just completing a census in regards to the Northwest Territories. I think, once we have the final census done, it will give us an idea exactly what the needs are for here in Yellowknife, what the different classes of need we are looking at. Again, it was based on surveys that we did. It has been identified by the Yellowknife authorities to say exactly where they want to see us invest this money. Again, it is something that we will have to look at. By reviewing the existing surveys, we will be able to see where that need is. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Time for question period has expired. I will allow the Member for one last, final supplementary. Mr. Villeneuve. Okay. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to return to item 6, oral questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Public Works and Services. I am trying to understand how it is that a report on the Dene K’onia facility in Hay River, which was last year discussed as a renovation project to house the territorial treatment centre, came out on January 11, 2006, and Public Works and Services issued a request for tender in an April newspaper here in the Northwest Territories requesting quotes to demolish the Dene K’onia facility in Hay River and subsequently yanked that tender. I am trying to, again, understand how it is that the report comes out in January and Regular Members find out about the change in the scope of the project via an ad that his department issued in April. The first question I have for the Minister is, if the report came out in January, why did we have to find out about it via a newspaper ad? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as the normal process is, when a department has an approved project to have work done on and they come forward to Public Works and Services, they request information on, for example, if it is the best thing to do, is do a renovation, then we would provide a report on the things that would need to be done, location, ground conditions, foundation. So we do a report on the existing facility and come up with what potential work would need to be done as part of the renovation. As part of that, we would also look at the cost-benefit analysis. If, in fact, the renovation that is being looked at comes in at a higher cost or if we do a review and suggest that possibilities are that we would get better value for our dollars spent by going to a new project instead of a major renovation, we would prepare that report, give a number of options to the department and wait for their response. In that case, a report was done, provided for the Department of Health and Social Services to come up with what the department would agree to on those options. Then it would follow through on the regular process of their decision-making. When the decision was made, it would come back to Cabinet and then be issued. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister and I, in his capacity as Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board, had numerous discussions regarding whether or not the Financial Administration Manual directives were followed in this project last year. Again, the questions came up in discussions with the Minister of Health and Social Services over whether or not the FAM directive was indeed followed. I want to get back to the communications. I want to know specifically what communications took place between Health and Social Services and the Department of Public Works in the period between January 11th and the time the ad came out in the newspaper in April. What communications specifically took place from your department to the Department of Health and Social Services? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we can take up the rest of the day if we want on the FAM directive that we spoke about in the past. In fact, all of our correspondence and records show that we followed that. In fact, we have tightened it up to bring some more clarity for Members. I have a copy of that. It is a letter we provided Members, as well, in this House. The actual communications that went by, I haven’t asked my department for a day-by-day process. The report was done as is normal process for Public Works and Services on the review of our facilities. It was handed over to the Department of Health and Social Services. I am not sure what date that was. The Member stated that the report was completed on January 11th. I would have to see when we actually forwarded it to Health and Social Services for their decision to be made by them, come back to us and inform us what their decision was. In this case, they chose a replacement instead of a renovation. A tender was put out for demolition. Now, there was an error made there. Instead of communications between the Department of Health and Social Services and Public Works that saw a release of that tender when, in fact, that tender should not have been released. We had some other processes we needed to follow through. That was why that was pulled back. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. A short supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see that the departments are communicating with one another on a really politically sensitive issue like the Dene K’onia facility and the relocation of the TTC, but, Mr. Speaker, when were Regular Members of this House going to be let in on the fact that the plan was to demolish Dene K’onia, a facility in Hay River, to accommodate the construction of a new TTC in Hay River? When were you going to let us know? You are the Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board. When were you going to let us know that this was the case, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The fact is there is no tender out there. It has been recalled, as I stated already and as the Members are well aware. The communications within the departments were discussed. The choices were made by the Department of Health and Social Services. The Department of Public Works and Services went out for a tender on that. Further discussions, when it came up, realizing that it should not have gone out, that processes had to be followed, it was pulled back. The Department of Health and Social Services made a decision that it wanted to go down the replacement instead of renovation. The Minister has brought it back for the discussion at that point. We would follow through on the processes that we have established clearly in our FAM directive. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The Chair is recognizing the fact that Members are choosing to make a Member’s statement with every supplementary question. Your rules specifically state that supplementary questions are to be very short and follow up to your original question. So I would like to encourage Members to try and keep your questions as short as possible, and answers as well, so that we can get more questions asked and answered in the House. Also, I would like to remind Members that questions are to be directed to the Speaker, not directly to a Minister. All questions have to be directed to the Speaker. Thank you, Members.

---Applause

Final, short supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. Who is responsible in the Department of Public Works and Services for issuing that tender? I would like a chronology, as well, of the discussions that took place between Health and Social Services and the Department of Public Works and Services between January 11th and the date that tender was issued in the newspaper. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 42-15(5): Change In Scope To Dene K'onia Facility Renovation Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ultimately, it comes down to the Minister being responsible, whether it is a contract clerk further down the system that got a phone call that said this is the decision made. We need to issue a contract. There is a chain of command there. Ultimately, I will be responsible for that decision that was made, as well as the decision to pull it back when we knew we had to go through a number of other steps. That was done. I will pull together some information on this and be prepared to show the Members. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to ask questions to the honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment just with respect to something that has been in the news lately. It is the residential school lump sum payment program for the common experience. I know that the GNWT is involved, but the Minister can detail for me how they are involved with this residential school lump sum payment payout that is happening. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 43-15(5): Residential School Lump Sum Payments

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the federal government has the responsibility for the compensation payments and have set up the Indian Residential Schools Canada Secretariat to coordinate this program. So the GNWT is not directly involved in the lump sum payments, but the GNWT is working to provide files to the secretariat to allow for the verification of student attendance. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Supplementary To Question 43-15(5): Residential School Lump Sum Payments