Debates of June 6, 2006 (day 6)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I stated, the money would be used for a number of areas. One is a consultant to conduct planning and functional programming. As well, we would have to, for the departments and travel for our own staff to talk with other departments that would be directly affected. As well, the surveying that would have to happen at a site, and geotechnical review. There are a number of locations of land that's owned within the community by the Government of the Northwest Territories. We have to see if they're in fact suitable sites to look at an office space.

The fact that we do have to get a plan together before we can go out to the private groups out there to see if they would be willing to enter into an arrangement where we'd see new office space, right now in fact the private sector is directly involved in the sense of accommodating the staff that were removed out of the Parry Building. For example, we've had a number of staff housed in the Mack Travel building; the Eskimo Inn; the Tuma Group Home, which was actually an owned facility that some of the staff are in; as well as the remaining left in the Parry Building itself. We cannot stay in this situation for much longer. As well, the Parry Building itself, if we have to move the Public Works staff out of there, then we would be in warehouses. That's probably the situation we'd have to go to.

The fact is, we have to get a plan together to be able to deal with whether we go out to the private sector for whether it's a lease-to-own or a leased facility, or we look at our own capital program. So there is going to be opportunity for the private sector once that decision is made. How many of our staff would we look at moving into a facility, or how many of the other landlords out there when we have agreements that are going to expire, lease agreements, those things have to be taken into consideration. So that's some of the things that we need to work on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again I didn't get a breakdown of what the $320,000 is going to be spent on. I'd like that. In addition to that, doesn't Public Works and Services, just as a matter of regular day-to-day business, keep track of, you know, the disposition of office space, future needs, how they're going to react? Like isn't some of this work already, or should have already been done? Isn't that somebody's job, to be looking after that type of issue? You know not just in Inuvik, but here in Yellowknife or Hay River or wherever the government leases office space, shouldn't somebody have a finger on what's going on? Again, I'm just, you know, shocked that we're going to spend $320,000 to find this information out. I don't think we've done enough homework and I don't think we're going out to the private sector, and I think the Minister and his department should look to the private sector to fill their office requirement needs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we've been told on a number of occasions, do it from within in-house. We get told to go out to the private sector. So we try to accommodate as much as we can on both sides of the scale. I just believe no matter how much homework we do, it's not going to be enough for the Member.

The fact is, we do have people who monitor our assets, our lease arrangements. But the fact is also, we weren't counting on one of our leased facilities that houses four departments to be shut down because of structural reasons, and spread the rest of the departments over a number of spaces. You can talk to the staff within the community of where they're housed and they would tell you how unhappy they are in the places they were put. So we've had to, on occasion, go to older facilities and out to the private sector and they would renovate an older spot, and that's what we would have to take because that's what's available. Now we're in a position where we have to come up with new space. Whether it's lease-to-own leased or if it does get approved for capital program, that's something we now have to come up with a functional plan, a program that we could actually come up with some estimates and then go out to the private sector for an RFP or tender. Before we do that, we also would have to have that discussion around this table to see if we would use a leased program instead of the typical capital program that we enter into. So there's a fair bit of work that needs to be done.

The Department of Public Works and Services has four people in-house that right now deal with the functional program and review of all the projects that the client departments bring to us, and there's a four-month backlog on that. So if we want to do it in-house, then we would have to look at what other programs we bump to accommodate this. Because we don't have adequate office space, it would take priority over some other projects out there. That's why it's coming forward in this basis for additional funds. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that $320,000 be deleted from the Department of Public Works and Services asset management activity in Supplementary Appropriation, No. 1, 2006-2007.

Motion on the floor. Motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Braden, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Braden.

Mr. Chairman, with reluctance I'm going to vote for the motion to delete. The amount of information that the Minister's providing is not enough to convince me that for $320,000 we're getting value for money. I really have difficulty accepting a request for this amount here. The information given us originally here to provide funding for planning and the functional program, the new consolidated office complex in Inuvik. It doesn't go so far as to say we're getting detailed drawings or architectural design. That's going to be another part. You know, Mr. Chairman, given the kind of descriptions and information that I'm used to from the government here, there's going to be a lot more money spent on planning before a single board is put in place for this complex. I'm not arguing that it is needed, but as with so many of the other objections that you've heard us raise, it is with the process and the stages and the steps that we're taking to get there, and truly are we receiving value for money. I don't have a full enough sense of what the stages are and where we are going with this to approve this. That is my objection, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Next I have Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was originally going to make this motion, but I had to give it some thought here. I mean I know this applies to Inuvik and my problem is not that we don't need an office space in Inuvik, I mean that's something that should have been identified a long time ago and the plan should have gone into the works for that. And $320,000, you know I'm arguing trying to get a couple more bucks for SFA; I'm arguing trying to get a little $1,200 from someone that was travelling on a medical trip to Edmonton, and we toss around $320,000 like nothing and I have a hard time with that, I really do. We need the office space. I don't think it's going to cost $320,000 to hire a consultant. Consulting is a word that seems to be used a lot here. Consult with us before it even comes into here. You know, I would appreciate that. Give me a good business case of why it should be in here.

Hear! Hear!

Now, the thing that I'm having difficulty with, it says Inuvik. That's the only thing.

---Laughter

---Interjection

Actually, it's not.

---Laughter

But I really have difficulty with it, Mr. Chair; $320,000, and, like somebody said, you have to go with your gut feeling. I hate to admit it, but my gut feeling just is the word Inuvik. I think it's bad planning. Mr. Chair, I really think it's bad planning and I really have a difficult time, especially when we're trying to scrape a few bucks together for some other I think more worthy programs. Too much money, in my opinion, is going into consultants. Maybe I put too much stock into our 4,300 workers within the Government of the Northwest Territories. Maybe I think they can do the job. But I see the amount of consultants that are brought in and outside help for us, hiring extra people for that. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I put too much stock in the people that work for us, thinking they have the in-house resources to do something like this, which I think wouldn't be that hard.

So, Mr. Chair, I didn't state a position. I am going to listen to what the rest of my colleagues say, but gut feeling says Inuvik. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Next I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Just a few short comments to add to this, Mr. Chairman. I think Mr. McLeod is right when he said that around here we lose the concept of money. We throw around $100,000 here, $200,000 here, $200 million like it's just numbers, you know, and $330,000 is at least $100,000 more than my house is worth. Three hundred twenty thousand would get us at least three teachers, or at least five special education assistants. It would get us at least three Novel housing, according to the Minister of Housing's math. It really is a lot of money. On the basis of what we're hearing, that is not going to get us…I mean we just don't have enough detail. I think I'm voting for the motion as a deferment for the Minister to come back with more information.

I just want to add, as I think it's been repeated by lots of other Members here, something's going on with the way this government studies and hires people for everything. I mean it's about time they trust their own judgments and their own powers and the work of the government workers, you know? I mean I talked about the consulting report of the educational facilities review, for example. I mean just let me not even get started on that. But I don't know when we just do our work, and you know $330,000 to start planning for a building is just too much. So I'm going to vote for the motion just to defer and to get more information as to why we need to do this and if we can do any better. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

I agree with what Ms. Lee just said. Three hundred twenty thousand dollars is a lot of money. There are other things going to be coming up here later on, too, which have to do with how this government spends capital and how they consult on spending capital. I suggest to you that you could probably in the private sector build most things for the price that you spend just on the soft costs and getting, you know, consulting done. Like I said in the committee the other day, I said I think that this government probably goes to design and everything else when they build an outhouse.

---Laughter

They do. They do.

They do. I'm not kidding you. Like the PWS, I'm sorry, but if they're going to build a fire hall in Enterprise and they're going to build exactly the same one in Kakisa, they're going to go back to the architects and get it designed again. That is the truth.

Sad truth.

Reality.

And $320,000 is a lot of money. I could give you other examples of what you can do things for in the private sector. But like Ms. Lee said, that's more than the house she lives in. You know, I think it's more than the house that most of us live in, and yet we talk about it like it's nothing. Let's just get an opinion. You've got nothing at the end of the day on this consultation. What have you got, a report? You might accept it; you might not accept it. That's a lot of money. How can I stress this to you, Mr. Chairman? Anyway, I can't support the $320,000. Sorry.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause

Page 24, Public Works and Services, capital investment expenditures, asset management, not previously authorized, $765,000.

Agreed.

Technology Service Centre, not previously authorized, $77,000.

Agreed.

Petroleum products, not previously authorized, $7.045 million.

Agreed.

Public Works and Services, capital investment expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $7.887 million.

Agreed.

We will now take a short break. Does committee agree?

Agreed.

---SHORT RECESS

I will call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, there was a bit of an oversight on page 11. Can I draw your attention back to page 11 of Supplementary Appropriation, No. 1? We failed to mention special warrants. I am going to call special warrants, $182,000.

Agreed.

Special warrants, page 12, regional operations, $3.212 million.

Agreed.

Page 13, special warrants, total department, $3.394 million.

Agreed.

Thank you, committee. We are now on page 25, Health and Social Services, capital investment expenditures, not previously authorized, program delivery support, $101,000.

Agreed.

Health services programs, $5.422 million.

Agreed.

Community health programs, $1.554 million.

Agreed.

Total department, $7.077 million.

Agreed.

Thank you. Page 26, Justice, capital investment expenditures, not previously authorized, legal aid services, $297,000.