Debates of June 6, 2006 (day 6)

Agreed.

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ramsay): Courts, $1.089 million.

Agreed.

Community justice and corrections, $305,000.

Agreed.

Services to the public, $93,000.

Agreed.

Total department, $1.784 million.

Agreed.

Page 27, Education, Culture and Employment, capital investment expenditures, not previously authorized, education and culture, $12.336 million.

Agreed.

Advanced education and careers, $4.867 million.

Agreed.

Total department, $17.203 million.

Agreed.

Page 27, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the item for $3.520 million for the Deh Cho Hall in Fort Simpson, I had some questions for the Minister on that one. How old is that building and how much extra life does he anticipate we will get out of it by spending $3.520 million? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The building was originally constructed as a student residence in 1957. The amount we are requesting is the amount identified of $3.520 million would deal with code compliance for the building to keep it open for two to four years.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Mr. Chairman, $3.5 million to extend the life of a 50-year-old building by two to four years? This makes the $320,000 in Inuvik to talk about design of office space pale in comparison. The folks that are in that building, we’ve visited that building, we’ve gone there for retreats and meetings, we have even had meetings in that building. Yes, certainly it’s an old building but it seems to be one that is held in some endearment in that community. I can understand the code. I can understand the reports of fire marshals and that kind of thing, but they have been kind of nursing that building along and using it and getting some value out of it. Has the department considered other options other than this very extravagant amount of money for such a short extension of life? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This facility has been looked at for a number of years as to what options could be undertaken to either keep the facility, renovate the facility or replace the facility complete. In our estimates in 2004 for the renovation, it was identified as $12 million. For replacement of the new facility, it was an estimate in 2004, for the same size, was approximately $19 million. The fact is there has been discussion back and forth between Education, Culture and Employment, the community, and options were sought from Public Works. The work that was done and what options may be went back and forth for some time. Finally, the fire marshal’s office became involved and looked at the deficiencies in that facility. The work that was done with the fire marshal was to get his okay to do the minimal amount of code upgrades, to get the blessing of the fire marshal’s office to allow us to use that facility until a replacement facility could be constructed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

As I understand it then, you are going to put $3.5 million worth of renovations and upgrades into this building and in two to four years you are going to tear it down and replace it anyway. This has got to be the ultimate case of throwing good money after bad here and I do respect the fire marshal and the code, but the fact of the matter is that usually upgrades to code and bringing things up to standard don’t come into play until there is a major renovation in the building. Once you start that process and start that ball rolling, then you have to comply with the newest codes. There is just a whole lot of things about this. How many square feet is the building and how much of it is used? If the building is replaced, tell me what the square footage would be of a new building. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the new facility would have to incorporate the Dehcho Education Council, Education, Culture and Employment’s regional office, Aurora College program delivery administration, the Department of Justice and the community wellness worker. The other occupant of the building would be the community library, the Multimedia Society, cultural centre, day care and Fort Simpson Historical Society. They would not be housed in a new facility. I don’t have the exact square footage. It would not be the same size, as a lot of the building right now is unoccupied because it was a student residence. There was a fire years back and that portion has not been occupied since. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you. So the new building’s projected cost in 2004 was $19 million and would be considerably smaller and require less square footage for the proposed occupants than what is there right now. Have you talked to the fire marshal’s office to discuss this to find out if there is anything of a lesser extent that could, on a temporary basis, satisfy the safety requirements? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the office of the fire marshal became involved in May of 2002. There have been ongoing discussions with that office in trying to get agreement as to what needed to be done with that facility to get the fire marshal to agree with the occupancy. There were some orders for immediate corrective action and that was done initially and, at that time, the office of the fire marshal determined that the building was not in compliance with a number of applicable National Building Codes of Canada and the National Fire Code and directed that specific improvements be made as a condition to remain in the building until 2006. Beyond 2006, at that time we were informed that we would have to do full code compliance. Full code compliance means exterior wall upgrades, vapour weather barriers and insulation upgrades, new floors designed to carry commercial office space loading, new and renovated foundation to support increased loading, all new windows, doors, sprinkler and fire alarm systems, renovated heat system, new ventilation system, all new electrical and plumbing systems, new firewalls in some areas, asbestos abatement, additional exterior door for fire safety reasons. Those were the items that we were told we would have to bring up to full code compliance. Based on that, Public Works looked at the estimates, brought that to Education, Culture and Employment and looked at what options were available. Upon further discussions with the office of the fire marshal to see how much longer beyond 2002 we could use the facility and if we had a plan in place to replace it, what we would have to do to meet the minimum requirements. That’s what we have brought forward now. This facility has been looked at, reviewed, discussed with community, with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Unfortunately, no satisfactory result came about until we were in the situation now with the fire marshal in having to do a minimum amount of work until we can get ourselves, or get the department, into a new facility. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If that long list you read off to bring it up to code is considered a minimum amount of work at a price tag of $3.5 million, I would say that that has been…So it wasn’t that list that you read off then. Okay. I understand my time is running out, so I want to tell you what I think you should do. I think you should go right away to tender for a private developer to build you the space to replace the required square footage in that building. You know what? I guarantee you they will build a whole building for $3.5 million and you can lease it for a reasonable rate. Talk to the fire marshal. It’s our government to our government. Talk to the fire marshal. Go to tender right away for office space. A private developer, I guarantee you, will come in there and give you a reasonable deal. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Next on the list I have Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I haven’t been a resident of Fort Simpson for quite a number of years myself. I know basically the Deh Cho Hall inside out. I know it’s an old building. Half of it is storage space. I don’t think the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, the education council, Justice and community wellness are all departments that take up…Some of the offices in there are 20 by 40 feet offices in that building. That’s way overkill. I think that the government could use something that is probably half the size and just as functional for the same cost. Just a question to the Minister, is the upgrade going to keep the library open, the Multimedia Centre and the day care centre. The bingo hall that’s in there, are they going to benefit out of $3.5 million, or is this just for the government portion of the building and the Deh Cho Hall itself? Is it for the whole building upgrade or just the government’s section? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The requirement for the upgrades that we’re requesting here would be to allow the occupancy of all those that are presently in that facility. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

My next question is how much of this $3.5 million is the government contributing in-kind to all these other facilities to bring them up to standard to keep their doors open? Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, for the record, again, the occupants within that facility are the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Dehcho Divisional Education Council, Aurora College and the Department of Justice. There are non-government occupants; the John Tetso Memorial Library, Open Door Society Family Resources Centre, Multimedia Society, cultural centre, day care centre and then there’s a community wellness worker and the Fort Simpson Historical Society with approximately 27 staff working in that facility. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

Yes, I guess it’s quite obvious that the other community societies that are occupying that building comprise more than 50 percent of the whole building itself, just thinking about the building itself. Is the government going to be looking at ways to recoup any of this $3.5 million, or is roughly $2 million of that $3.5 million going as a grant-in-kind to all these societies, the historical society, the Multimedia Centre and the library? How much of that money is going as a grant-in-kind?

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the money right now identified to keep the facility open would be charged against Education, Culture and Employment. There is no grant-in-kind being proposed to those other organizations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If there is no grant-in-kind, if you bring the library up to standard, the Open Door Society up to standard, the cultural centre and the Deh Cho Hall up to standard, who pays for that? Is that coming out of the government coffers because we are such good people or the building is of such high sentimental value to the community? What are the reasons for the government to agree to do all these upgrades at no charge? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the total amount to keep the facility open as it stands now, the parts that are being used, is $3.5 million. If we decide we are going to shut other sections of the building down, then that’s what we would be doing if we decided to just upgrade the main departments. The decision, as the facility is constructed, your heating system is going to run throughout, your existing fire suppression system would have to be maintained, those things, electrical would have to be maintained as well. So the amount requested for keeping that facility open, as has been discussed with the fire marshal’s office, our estimates are $3.5 million. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Anything further, Mr. Villeneuve?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one more quick question. If you are going to run a sprinkler system through the library and the cultural centre and the Open Door Society offices, you don’t have to if you didn’t want to keep them open. So why incur that extra cost if the government isn’t going to recoup it somehow through their community capacity building initiatives or all this Northern Strategy money the government is throwing around, the gas tax money? Why don’t we get a contribution from the community on that portion of the building that we are paying for to keep them open? Why haven’t we looked at that and downsized this supp? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.