Debates of June 6, 2006 (day 6)

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the work that’s been done with the fire marshal on continuing the occupancy for a minimum amount of time to get us to the situation where we would have a new facility in place, the required amount of work based on our estimates and in discussions with the fire marshal’s office as well as electrical inspectors is going to cost $3.5 million is our estimate. Whether or not we decide we are going to shut down other portions of the building, I am not sure what the impact would be on these estimates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Anything further, Mr. Villeneuve?

No, that’s fine.

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Braden.

You know, Mr. Chairman, I think the town of Fort Simpson really deserves better, much, much better from this government in terms of assessing what we know is a vital piece of infrastructure for this community as well as for our government. The Minister has told us some of the history of trying to get a solution and get resolve on a plan that would suit everybody, and he hasn’t been able to do so. The issue for me is the amount of time that the future and the issues regarding this building have been in play. I guess that’s the question I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, or start asking, is just how many years has the future of the Deh Cho Hall been in question and how is it that now we are faced essentially with an ultimatum that the fire marshal has called on and now we have to look at this situation almost in desperation? How long has this been in play, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This facility has been discussed, plans have been devised and discussed with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment with the community for quite a few years. As I stated earlier, the fire marshal’s office became involved in 2002. I can say that the departments have bent over backwards trying to accommodate the community. Public Works has revised a number of options, gone back to the drawing board a number of times trying to satisfy the client departments as well as community requests and concerns. We have now come to a stage where we have run out of options with the fire marshal’s office and a minimum code upgrade is required. We have done that estimate. Even if we were to, for example, look at portable units, the timeline of getting those units built from a factory somewhere in Canada, shipped up to the community, built or put in place, even for temporary means, even if it’s a year or two until a new facility can be built, we are still looking at a substantive amount of dollars.

So looking at the facility and what options are available, the decision now to replace the facility, we are going to need a minimum of two to four years to get a new facility in place. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

The timeline we are looking at here, $3.5 million to get an extra four years of life…I’m sorry?

---Interjection

Two to four years, thank you. Two to four years’ life out of this building and even then we are looking at shutting it down. Mr. Chairman, this pushes the notion of value for money way out there into the stratosphere. It’s almost extraordinary that the department would bring such a scenario to the floor of the Assembly and ask for approval of it. If we do the math on this, as the Minister has already advised us on some previous projects, we are looking at an annual increase in the capital construction costs in the Northwest Territories of at least 10 percent per year. So we take something we know would cost us $19 million now, it’s going to increase by about $2 million a year for every year that we don’t do something about it. So even if we go the four-year window here, we’re talking about adding somewhere in the neighbourhood of nine to $10 million by the time you compound it. We’re looking at a $30 million building in four years that today would cost 19. I don’t want to deny the people in Fort Simpson this kind of facility, but, Mr. Chairman, to ask us to approve this money and then still have nothing on a go-forward basis is astonishing.

Mrs. Groenewegen asked a very good question right upfront: what kind of options has the government looked at? Where are the private sector partners or in fact the aboriginal partners? The Dehcho aboriginal government has, by very skilful negotiating, managed to tap some fairly significant federal dollars. Are they interested, for instance, in making an investment in their own region, in their own infrastructure, just as one example of a potential partnership that’s out there to help to do this? What I’m getting at, Mr. Chairman, is thinking outside the box, getting creative and involving the whole community, if not the whole region, into some answers. I cannot support this appropriation based on what we know, Mr. Chairman.

So that’s the question that I would give back to the Minister is what other options, or is the Minister ready to go back to the region and back to the communities and give them the same ultimatum that he’s presenting to the Assembly here and say what can we do to come up with a good solution that’s going to suit everybody’s needs and have some long-term use for it and some value for taxpayers’ money, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I stated earlier, there have been numerous options looked at and reviewed, presented to the department for decision and working with the community. The community wanted for quite some time to keep the facility and have it renovated. When we looked at those options for renovation and the value for money, it was felt that the best investment is for a new facility. That decision was made. Unfortunately from the timeline the initial discussion started to where we are now, we have been burning the candle at both ends, so to speak, and are now in a position where to proceed we need to have some space so that it’ll carry us to the next stage. If we do, which the government will have to look at is, again, as I stated earlier, the capital plan that we have is fully subscribed to. There is little to no room for additional capital programs. So as a government we’re going to have to look back to the situation of leasing instead of owning some of our own facilities. The new facility, who would be housed in the new facility would be the Dehcho Divisional Education Council, the Education, Culture and Employment regional office, Aurora College program delivery and administration -- so that’s the learning centre as well -- and the Department of Justice. Those would be the occupants of a new facility. The other occupants that now would not be in a facility as we’re not mandated to build those spaces into a government space, the Dehcho First Nation government, if they’re interested, could work as we have suggested in other communities if they wanted to put additional space into that space. They could work with us and provide the funds in those areas. But these core areas of service delivery are GNWT areas of mandate, so we have to be doing that at a minimum on our own. That’s the decision that’s made, is to replace with a new facility for the mandated departments I’ve just listed off and we’re still going to need a minimum of two years to get a new facility on the ground. In the meantime, we’re going to have to do minimum code requirements to keep this other facility open. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Braden.

Yes, briefly, Mr. Chairman. What is so disappointing about this discussion is just the inability of the Minister, and I’m assuming the client department here, to broaden their horizons, to look at innovation and new thinking that could really work in the best interests of the whole community for the long term. I just don’t get the sense that the government is capable of doing that and it is terribly disappointing and now we have this ultimatum in front of us.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Next on the list I’ve got Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know this is not an easy decision and it really does impact the community. It’s a very important building, it’s a community building. I know the building extremely well and I realize the importance of it. I was there in Fort Simpson not that long ago and I got to walk through it again and see the day care and the important infrastructure that it provides to the community and you can definitely realize how critical it is to the community. I shouldn’t just say Fort Simpson, I should call it the community at large.

The trouble is, are we giving value to the community? I’m cautious, because if for $3.5 million are we giving the community just a temporary band-aid solution? I’m concerned that the delay on this process that started I don’t know how many years, and maybe that’s what I should ask the Minister first is, when did this report first come out about these doom and loom, or whatever the phrase goes, as when these problems sort of arisen? So when did this report come out that the fire marshal said that the building needed to be shut down? When did his officials put their stamp on it and say that something needed to be done today? When did that clock start ticking? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I stated earlier, the indication I have, the fire marshal’s office became involved in 2002 and looked at a number of things and looked at the occupancy until 2006, as well as other timelines. So it’s been a number of years. Quite a number of options were looked at. Other options can be re-reviewed.

If we want to go back to the drawing board and try it again, the fact is there is no dollars identified for the Deh Cho Hall right now in the capital plan. Any work to do any improvements or to even look at portable units to put in the community interim, we need the funds. There are no funds right now in the plan to deal with that facility. Unfortunately, we are in this situation. The work was reviewed quite a number of years ago, but the plan wasn’t accepted and, based on that, I can only go on why it never made the cut whenever it came forward for funding either for renovation or replacement in previous years. I know from our involvement at this point we’ve looked at a number of options, we’ve worked with the client department, the client department has now come forward with a request for the fact that this needs to be done to continue occupancy of the building. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, I appreciate those answers and it certainly feels as if the decision to do this was made at the last minute, whereas now we’re forced with a really tough decision. Do we spend a lot of money to save a community building that truly is the heart of the community, or do we look like bad guys and say that we’re not getting good value for money? The fact is, are we doing the community a disservice, because if we spend $3.5 million and if we get who knows how many years, I mean, some are saying two, some are saying four, but even if we get $3.5 million at three years worth of service, I mean, how much more will it cost to go beyond that? I mean, will it cost us another couple million dollars to go a couple more years? And at that time, I mean, how long do we have to sit on our hands before we make the right decision, which is this community deserves a proper building, a proper facility to run their day care, to run their community centre programs, to run the education offices, the library, the Minister knows all this. We don’t need to lecture the Minister. But it’s a shame that the wisdom, I should say or lack of wisdom, through the FMBS process that it’s left us to the last minute to make this cruel decision. I’d like to hear from the Minister on how much it would cost to tear that building down. How much has there been an assessment, an environmental assessment on the extensiveness of what it would cost? You know? I’m sure that this building is inundated with asbestos and lead paint and who knows what else. On top of that, if renovations were to start today, that $3.5 million renovations, how long would it take to do them? Would it take a year to do them? A year and a half? Did the clock start ticking the day one if we approve the renovations? Would we impede on the fact that the three years of life actually turns out to be a year and a half or two years? Are we again getting value for money? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is not a result of the FMB or FMB process. This is a result of a plan that was tried to be worked out with the community and the client department, being Education, Culture and Employment, looking at a number of options. What was presented wasn’t satisfactory with the community and a revised plan was worked on, put forward. Unfortunately the situation has gone on that the fire marshal has said this is the minimum requirements that are required at this point. So, Mr. Chairman, I don’t know how many times I’ve got to say and repeat, the fact is there are no dollars identified right now in the capital plan to deal with the Deh Cho Hall. The only way there’s going to be money to deal with this in the temporary or long-term process would be to get approval from this Assembly. That’s why the department has now gotten to the stage of doing that. They’ve looked at options to try and keep the facility open. The fact is a new facility, and this is what I think was of concern to the community as well, partly for the department, is that the new facility would only address the GNWT’s need for space. That would be the Dehcho Divisional Education Council, Education, Culture and Employment’s regional office, Aurora College program delivery and administration, and that means their learning centre as well, and the Department of Justice. So, Mr. Chairman, the many questions that keep coming out as a result of this, yes, when we look at value for dollars being spent this is not the best way to spend money, but ultimately we’ve got to have office space to keep these places open at a minimum until we get a new place. The department has identified they’re going to go for a new facility and they would have to come in and get into the capital process through the business planning stage to get the dollars approved for a new facility. So, Mr. Chairman, I guess instead of delaying the fact and just continuing to repeat myself over and over here, if the committee’s got a motion, then let’s have somebody read the committee motion and get on with the day. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for the suggestion, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the stand the Minister has made, but I’d still like to know what the cost would be to tear that building down and has there been a full environmental assessment of that building, recognizing that it’s probably full of asbestos and lead paint and who knows what else? To add to that question I’d asked earlier, what class of estimate was this $3.5 million pegged at? Was it a class A, class B, class C, or even a class D? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the demolition of a facility would be taken into the plan for a new facility. Whenever we plan a replacement facility, the demolition costs of an existing facility would be incorporated into that. This estimate is very recent. I can’t give you an actual class of estimate, but it is based on the actual code requirements. For example, we would have to inspect the structural integrity, that’s the columns right into the basement and crawlspace; deficiencies should be repaired or shall be repaired; required sign and stamp certification by an engineer; architectural fire separations, current code where possible, without tearing out existing; basement mechanical room, fire rating there; sprinkler system. There are a number of different things listed under there, as well as code things, fire system and other things. So there are, it’s fairly recent, this is dated January 25, 2006, what we would have to do. Our estimates based on that information, I’ll give you a breakdown. An A and E contract would be identified at less than $300,000; administration for $30,000; upgrade estimate is $2.5 million; a contingency is also built into there of 25 percent. So $3.5 million. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think at this time my last question would be what type of schedule are we talking about and what would the time frame be affecting potential future usage? If this $3.5 million, and it’s very unheard of to have any estimate to come with a 25 percent contingency, which tells me that people are nervous who put a number on it to begin with. But the fact is, when does that start? So when does the potentially three years of life start on this building? When do the day renos start or does it start when renos have finished? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as all work we would do, once the work is completed, then we would get a stamped approval or a letter of occupancy or certification. At that point the clock would start ticking. The work would be done once we get approval. If approval is granted by the House, there would be a contract issued for the architectural engineering and then other work would begin once that is done. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Next I have Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My comments and questions are also with the continuation of the operation of the Deh Cho Hall. I just want to advise my honourable colleagues that this is not a new project, nor is it something that came out of the blue. It’s something that myself as MLA for Nahendeh and Fort Simpson that I’ve been working with the people on, on how to address the office needs. In 2002, when the fire marshal came out with his report, he’s saying that in 2006 the building is going to have to be shut down or renovated. Everybody said that’s great, let’s just renovate this building or even retrofit it and extend the life by 10 or 20 years that Members are questioning. But we all know how retrofits work and renovations. It costs almost the same as a new building. Do the Minister’s estimates include an amount for a complete renovation and can you tell this committee how much it was?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if we were to do the full requirement of complete renovation for that facility to get another between 10 or 20 years, I believe, a full renovation would be $12 million. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That’s something that kind of weighed a lot on the community decision as it went along. They’re like myself and anything that government does, why does it cost so much even a simple estimate for office space? As we discussed earlier in the day, it’s like $320,000. I’m not too sure why it is, but in the construction field the cost of labour and materials are just astronomical. A new project such as this, we’re looking at $3 million. If Members of this side of the House had the power to get the government to spend money, I would certainly champion the motion to spend $20 million and get this new building created right away. But when there’s other factors in the way here, and I’m sure that there’s lots of pressures on our government on how to spend their capital dollars and one of them is to hang on to their $40 million courthouse that’s here in Yellowknife that nobody from the region ever wanted. But aside from that, this is something that the community…I’ve been working with them and trying to get this on the ground, trying to find the best solution, and the best solution right now is to extend the life and to continue to work with government and look at other ways of creating a new building. One of my colleagues mentioned getting the governments involved or the Dehcho governments involved in creating a new building. But that’s still some time away and unfortunately we’re stuck where we are today. That is maintaining an office building because I can ask the Minister as well there, Mr. Chairman, you know? Do nothing. What is the option if we do nothing at all, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the option of doing nothing would not be the responsible option of government because the fire marshal would, based on the discussions and the requirements that we need to do to keep this facility open for a couple of years until we get to a new facility would be, for example, they require having a plan in place to either bring the building up to code or to vacate the building. The fire marshal at any point here can step in if they feel the minimum upgrades don’t begin ASAP, they may be directed to vacate the building. Closing the building has also been identified. So we would be in a very bad situation. Not only would the non-government organizations be out in the cold, so would a number of departments.

Just for the record, Mr. Chairman, the estimates prepared in 2004 totalled $12 million and that’s bringing the building right up to code. The 2004 estimates also identified to replace the existing facility, all the space being used, was $20 million. The most recent estimates to accommodate only the GNWT staff and Aurora College has been approximately $10 million. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Menicoche. Thank you. Next I have Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick question for Mr. Roland. You continue to say that the minimum code requirements will get you two to four years more out of the building. Now, is that set in stone? I mean, do the renovations, are they not going to be code in two or three years? Is it possible that the life of the building could be extended a little longer? Because I thought when you brought something up to code, you got longer use out of the building. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in discussions with the fire marshal’s office, the minimum amount of upgrade required if we only intend to use the building for another two to four years is what’s been identified. If we intend to use it beyond that timeline, then we have to upgrade the rest of the code requirements that are put in place, and that’s where we get into the $12 million figure. To meet the minimum requirements that we have been directed to, we’re looking at the $3.5 million. So ultimately it’s if we were going to go beyond the two to four years, then we’re going to have to increase the amount of work to another level. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find it kind of odd that we’re only going to get two to four years if we do minimum code requirements. You’re in a house and somebody says you have to change your wiring. You change your wiring, now you’re up to code. That’s going to last longer than two to four years. I’m just making a point that I just find it kind of odd that the minimum code would only be good for two to four years and then expires. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Roland, did you want to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It’s not that the work that we’re going to do expires. It’s that if we’re going to use it for longer than the years we’ve identified, other requirements are going to have to come into place. That’s what we’ve been told from the fire marshal’s office is if we’re going to use it beyond this year, here’s the amount of work that is required. That’s what we’ve based the estimate on. If we’re going to go beyond those years, here are further things that you’re going to have to repair. So that’s what we’ve been directed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. McLeod. Thank you. Next I have Mrs. Groenewegen.

Mr. Chairman, the more I hear the less believable this story becomes. You know, it is no wonder we have a capital infrastructure deficit in the Northwest Territories when you look at the kind of money and the way that we’re going about doing things. I mean, it’s no wonder we don’t have enough money. So in answer to the question, how long have we known we have a problem, we’ve known we’ve had a problem for four years. Now there’s no money budgeted. We’ve known since 2002. This is 2006. So we’ve know for four years that we have a problem and that a D-day was coming here on this with the fire marshal. But now with no, and I think I heard that there’s no money in the budget for this, there’s nothing planned, this is it. So, like, whose excellent planning was that? I think that’s terrible. I still haven’t got an answer from the Minister on how many square feet we are talking about. You can’t tell me the building costs $19 million and not be able to tell me how many square feet you’re going to, you know, if you’re going to take your core government client departments with you to the new building, how many square feet is that? How much square feet are you occupying now with the NGOs and all the extra people you have in the building? Those are two fundamental numbers that are just so germane to this analysis. I need to know those numbers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.