Debates of June 8, 2006 (day 8)

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 96-15(5): Wood Pellet Boiler System Pilot Project For North Slave Correctional Centre

Mr. Speaker, it’s a good suggestion and potentially if somebody out there is interested in entering into this business, wanted to provide wood pellets and could do it in a cost effective manner, obviously we’d be very interested in looking at that. I assume you’re talking about the pellets as opposed to the construction of the boilers, yes. So, Mr. Speaker, if such a supply is available in the NWT, we’ll certainly consider it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 96-15(5): Wood Pellet Boiler System Pilot Project For North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I followed the Department of Justice on this initiative because I think it’s ground breaking, I think it’s the way to go in terms of our larger institutions down the Mackenzie Valley, down the Deh Cho and right down the whole Northwest Territories that this department can be the guiding light, I guess, to the other departments, I guess, in terms of looking at large facilities that have institutions like this that could use wood pellets and get the people in the Northwest Territories to start supplying wood pellets. So I guess I wanted to ask, would the Minister given the signal to the people out there who are listening who may be interested in wood pellets and supplying wood pellets to this type of institution, what…(inaudible)…that says yes, let’s approach the Minister and his department. Right now, I understand this is in the baby stages of trying it out. When can the people feel some level of comfort and come to the Minister and make some deals in terms of how to best supply the northern pellet furnaces? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 96-15(5): Wood Pellet Boiler System Pilot Project For North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The boiler will be installed and operational, we believe, by April 1st. Then we will test it and we will know much more then. Obviously there are a number of institutional around the North, not only in our departments but in others. I know the folks at Public Works are very excited about testing this technology. I think if it’s successful and saves us money, it’s certainly something we will consider across our other facilities.

Mr. Speaker, if there are people in any of the regions that are putting together business plans, have initiatives that would look at alternative energy or renewable energy, that’s something we want to talk about. So I would certainly encourage them to approach our regional people and we will take it from there. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask some questions of the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko, and it’s in relation to seniors’ housing programs, Mr. Speaker. We’ve heard quite a bit in the last couple of days about a program that enables seniors who have significant personal wealth to be treated as anyone else is who has essentially no income and can have access to housing provided for almost entirely by the taxpayer.

I have heard significant objections to this here in the House. I have had calls from constituents. I have heard it on the media. To paraphrase one constituent, they do not want to see taxpayers’ money to go towards people who can otherwise afford to look after themselves. That’s a pretty straightforward, direct message. The Minister, yesterday and this morning, the acting president of the Housing Corporation, was on the media saying that this program very much deserves to be reviewed for this kind of potential loophole. I want to ask the Minister, Mr. Speaker, will he, until such as this policy is reviewed for this type of situation, suspend the policy, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 97-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the policy was put in place in the 12th Assembly. The 12th Assembly to where we are today in the 15th, a lot of circumstances have changed. In the 12th Assembly, we were part of Nunavut. The whole intention of this policy was to ensure that seniors in social housing were not to pay rent. The majority of our clients at that time were in the smaller communities, which made up the majority of the Members in this House. I think we also have to realize that the policy was there with good intentions, but the cause of some circumstances of the changing economy in the Northwest Territories, the problem seemed to originate out of communities where there is a market for housing. I think because of that situation, we are going to have to look at how the means tests are being done. Right now, the means test is based on income. There is nothing there that looks at an asset the individual may own. Because of the process we have in place, the Department of Education and ourselves have made a unilateral decision that we will transfer the subsidy that we provide to all of our clients, a subsidy of $30 million, to operate our social housing stock in the Northwest Territories. The Department of Education will be able to ensure that we are being fair to the people who live in those units, but, more importantly, those dollars that they receive are to pay for the operation of our units. That decision has been made.

We all know the Income Security Program we have in place; there has to be review of that in the next six months. So we are in the process of doing that and bringing forward to the Members to review that program to ensure that it’s fair, it’s transparent and problems like that would be caught during that review. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 97-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Minister, for repeating the oft-heard review and the chronology of this program in this House. I don’t need to go over the old ground on this, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think we recognize that even though a program may have been set up with good intentions 10 years ago, circumstances change and we have to be ready to address it when those things become apparent. This is all I am asking of the Minister. With the concerns of the validity of a couple of aspects of this program, it seems that we really do have something here that we need to address. In the meantime, until we’ve had a chance to take a good look at it, will the Minister suspend it so that we are not going to be compounding the problem by potentially enabling other people to get into something that we really don’t want on our books? That’s all I am asking. Let’s put this thing on hold until we figure out what to do with it, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 97-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in light of the situation, we do have to look at this policy. If that’s what the Member would like is for us to suspend this policy over the period of time…I think you have to realize that this is only unique to market. We are not seeing this problem in non-market communities. To be fair to those communities that are non-market communities, I will agree to suspend the policy in market communities to ensure that this practice does not go on.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 97-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to accept that offer. The thing we need to look at is, as circumstances change, our readiness to amend and affect our policies in the meantime. The message we have heard from constituents is that there has to be a fundamental principle here that where a person can’t afford to pay something toward their own welfare, that we should be in a position to work with them at that extent. That, I think, is a very worthwhile offer and I would like to ask the Minister to make a commitment to bring to the Social Programs committee the framework for how we can amend this program on a go-forward basis.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 97-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I stated in my commitment here today, I will have to go back to Cabinet and get direction. Once direction is given, I will take it back to the Social Programs committee. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have heard the Minister of the Housing Corporation exhaustively try to explain what this program is, where it came from and everything else. I have to say it’s an admirable try, but I am going to ask my questions now to the Minister responsible for the social housing policy and that’s the Minister of ECE. It was just over a year ago that they took the $30 million from the Housing Corporation. They casually liberated $1.3 million from the Housing Corporation’s budget to hire new people to carry out this social housing policy. I would like to ask the Minister why his staff aren’t working on rectifying this situation and continuing to pay rent for people who can afford to pay it themselves? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 98-15(5): Review Of Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Because this House was assured that when the changeover took place that there would be no change in the rules that were administered by the Housing Corporation and that any change would come about as a result of the overall review of the income security programs, all of the income security programs, that process is underway with us working to go back to the standing committee, hopefully fairly shortly with some proposed changes. We have gone back to the standing committee to outline what we have heard during the consultation process and what some of the recommendations were, but we have also undertaken not to implement any changes without having that discussion with that committee and Members of this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 98-15(5): Review Of Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I still haven’t quite figured out what the folks that were delivering the social housing policy at the Housing Corporation are doing today. I know there is new staff at ECE that are looking after the social housing policy now. I am wondering is there any way, given the media attention that caused the concern that we are hearing from constituents, at all that the Minister can fast track some review of this policy, so that fair is fair, Mr. Speaker? Can he fast track it? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 98-15(5): Review Of Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are hoping we can develop a policy that is rational and meets the needs of the people of the Northwest Territories. I would hate at this point, with the amount of time and effort and consultation that’s gone into reviewing this policy, to announce any changes suddenly. We intend to make some rational changes to this. Let’s be very clear about this; there may be some changes to the policy around how we subsidize housing for seniors. I expect that there will be, but I would rather we bring forward all of our proposals in a comprehensive, cohesive manner and make sure that we are doing things right the first time, rather than having to make some more incremental changes because we find that we made some mistake along the way. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to have a discussion with the Minister of Housing, the Honourable David Krutko. I am tired, too. I want to ask the Minister, in terms of the manufactured homes that are going to be impacted by the proposed gas pipeline, these manufactured homes, what critical stages would the people in the communities that are going to be impacted, I have three communities, four communities possibly in my region that are going to benefit from this concept. At what stage do we need to get on board and say, yes, this is the way to go right now? All I know, there is a time when we have to make a decision and go with it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 99-15(5): Convertible Workforce Housing For Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are still in discussions with the Mackenzie Gas Pipeline Group with regard to the social impact benefits that we are trying to get as a government. More importantly, we also have to include the federal government by way of CMHC and see how we can get federal contributions to this project in order to make it viable. We also need the federal commitment. Those discussions are ongoing. There is a meeting coming up next week. At some point we will have to sit down and evaluate where we are at, making sure we have parties onside before we can proceed. Right now, we are still in the preliminary stages. There is no final decision being made at this point. We are still negotiating with all parties.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 99-15(5): Convertible Workforce Housing For Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister make a commitment to come into my region sometime in the next few months to really have a discussion on this concept? We want to hear both sides. We want to know how it’s going to impact our communities, the benefits to our communities and the things we have talked about in this House. The community needs to be comfortable and to lend the support. This concept could bring a lot of benefits to our community, but if we don’t do it right, it also could be a disaster. So we want to have a good discussion with the Housing Corporation on this Novel concept. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 99-15(5): Convertible Workforce Housing For Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I previously committed to the Member, we will be holding housing forums in the Sahtu and the Deh Cho within the next number of months. I feel that’s probably a more appropriate time to add this to the agenda during those meetings. So maybe that is something we can add to the agenda when we host those meetings in the Sahtu and Deh Cho.

Mr. Speaker, I was really happy there for a minute. I thought we actually got an answer from the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation on something to do with the seniors’ rent. First I heard we were going to suspend the rent policy that’s in place now. Then I heard we were going to suspend it in market communities. Then I heard we were just going to take it back to Cabinet to see if we can suspend it in market communities. I just think this has created so much lack of clarity now that if I was a senior living in a housing unit right now, I would not be getting any sleep this weekend wondering what’s going on. What does suspend mean? To me, to say you are going to suspend the rent scale for seniors sounds like they are going to be paying means tested rent here on the rent scale in the next little while. That’s what suspend means to me. Now, if the Minister says he is going to grandfather the existing tenants in seniors’ housing under the current regime and suspend any further renting of units until this issue of the rent scale has been decided upon, then I can understand that. I need some clarity here. What is the Minister talking about? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 100-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we all know, the Minister can’t unilaterally make a policy decision that has to be ratified by Cabinet. In this case, I have to take it back to Cabinet to ensure that Cabinet agrees that I can suspend the policy or change a policy that is going to have an affect on the government by way of expenditures. We have to go through that process. As we all know, I committed to that to the Member from Yellowknife that I will suspend the policy. We are going to be having a Cabinet meeting on the 22nd. I will bring it to Cabinet at that time and see what the direction of Cabinet is for proceeding forward. It’s a policy that has to be reviewed and I can’t unilaterally change it, because I have to get Cabinet direction. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 100-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, I just need to understand, then, exactly what the Minister is going to ask the Cabinet to approve. What is he is going to bring forward in his proposal? Is he going to bring forward a proposal to suspend rent subsidies for seniors under the present means of determining rent for going forward or for retroactive? What is the Minister going to ask the Cabinet to approve? What policy?

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 100-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Mr. Speaker, as we all know, the problem we face here is we don’t have a means of doing an asset-based test on what assets these seniors have. In order for us to change it, that seemed to be where the problem is. How do you assess an individual by way of an application process to ensure that they are aboveboard on whether they can afford rent or can’t they? That’s why this problem is unique to the market communities and that’s where we have to focus our decision. Again, we will be having to come forward and have a discussion paper to look at how we can make these changes. We are already looking at what’s happening in other jurisdictions across the country to ensure that what we do here is not only unique to us, but we also have precedents that are out there that we can use. We will have to bring a discussion paper to Cabinet with regard to how we change this policy. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 100-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of seniors currently living in public housing, I need to know if the Minister in the next few weeks is going to go to Cabinet and ask them for some kind of moratorium on the existing current Seniors’ Rent Subsidy Program. I need to know what context that that request is going to be made. We can’t do this open ended. Do seniors know by now that the government is considering a change in the policy for assessing rent? Yes, I think they do. Between the work of ECE and the Housing Corporation, I think they do. But Mr. Braden asked for something more specific and something more immediate and I think we owe it to them, on this last day where we have a chance to get this clear, to know what it is the Minister is going to ask the Cabinet to do. Are we going to put a moratorium on more subsidized seniors applicants moving into public housing until this policy is in place? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Deputy Premier, Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 100-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member is going into a couple of areas. One, where the responsibility for subsidies for seniors in public housing, which now falls under the Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment as we’ve transferred that program. There is another program within the Housing Corporation that deals with seniors in independent housing. I think the question on the work of the work that Mr. Dent is doing on the subsidies situation of the government would best be directed to Mr. Dent in this case. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I said in my response to Mr. Ramsay, the promise that was made publicly and in this House was that when the subsidy program for public housing, which includes the subsidy for seniors in public housing, when that was transferred or responsibility for that program was transferred from the Housing Corporation to Education, Culture and Employment it would be taken over with no change in the policy. At this point there is no change. We are examining all of our income security programs and all of our subsidy programs that are administered by Education, Culture and Employment and I expect that we will be proposing some changes to those programs in the course of the next six months or so. But those proposed changes won’t be sprung on anybody. There will be an appropriate period of notice and it will only be done after consultation with Members in this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 100-15(5): Seniors' Rent Subsidy Policy

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then, again I must ask, what is the Minister of Housing, what request and proposal is he taking to the Cabinet in the next few days in relation to the suspension of the seniors' housing rent scale? What is he taking? What’s being suspended? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.