Debates of March 1, 2006 (day 39)

Thank you. I would like to go to the Minister for the Minister’s opening comments. Minister Miltenberger, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to introduce Bill 16, Tobacco Control Act. This government is proud to bring forth legislation that builds upon and expands municipal bylaws and the existing Workers' Compensation Board regulations. I would like to recognize the hard work and thoughtful consideration of this bill by the Standing Committee on Social Programs. The committee's personal contributions in passing on the public's input has resulted in a bill that will help us greatly reduce the public's expose to second-hand smoke.

With this bill, we continue the process of denormalizing tobacco use in the Northwest Territories. Smoking will not be permitted in public areas and youth will face fines for purchasing tobacco and its accessories as will the storeowners who sell to them. Storeowners will also be required to remove all displays of tobacco and require identification from all young people prior to sale. This bill will greatly restrict the availability of tobacco to young people, act as a strong deterrent to those who would sell to youth, and limit the public's exposure to second-hand smoke as much as possible.

This bill represents our collective desire for a healthier people, embodies our aspirations for the future of our youth, and provides us with a determined step towards a smoke-free North. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. I now have Ms. Lee, chairperson of the Standing Committee on Social Programs for opening comments.

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Social Programs held public hearings on Bill 16, Tobacco Control Act, on December 5, 2005, in Yellowknife; on December 6th in Enterprise and Kakisa; and on December 7th in Fort Providence and Behchoko. The clause-by-clause review of the bill took place in Yellowknife over two meetings on January 31st and February 9, 2006. The committee would like to thank all of the people who spoke to the bill during our public meetings.

The committee heard strong support for Bill 16 from representatives of the Canadian Public Health Association, the NWT Medical Association and Tobacco Action Yellowknife, as well as several individuals who spoke on their own behalf.

Some witnesses suggested that the bill could go further, by extending the prohibition on smoking in public places to include the use of smokeless tobacco, and by raising the legal age to purchase tobacco products to 19.

The committee was impressed to learn that the band store in Kakisa has been keeping cigarettes under the counter for some time already on their own initiative. However, a few presenters in other communities had reservations about the prohibition on displaying tobacco products in stores that minors can access, as they believed this was hiding the problem rather than dealing with it. One presenter suggested it would be better to limit the sale of tobacco products to smoke shops where minors would not be allowed entry at all.

Some witnesses and committee members questioned the government's ability to enforce the legislation effectively, given that many small communities only receive visits from an environmental health officer once or twice a year. For example, one witness told us she had noticed that every time she drove past a local bar, the ashtray was inching closer and closer to the door, despite the WCB requirements that it be three metres away. She suggested that the department might be able to use local officials to make enforcement less sporadic.

One issue of concern to the committee is the status of the designated smoking rooms that are currently permitted under the WCB's environmental tobacco smoke worksite regulations. While none of the witnesses spoke on this matter, the committee is aware that some businesses have recently gone to considerable expense to construct designated smoking rooms in reliance on the WCB regulations. From our discussions with the Minister, the committee understands that the regulatory powers in Bill 16 are broad enough to make an exception to the prohibition on smoking in public places in order to allow designated smoking rooms. The Minister assured the committee that in drafting the regulations, the "intent would be not to be more onerous at this point than the WCB."

The committee wishes to stress the importance of notice and communication to businesses that will be affected by this new act. In particular, the committee would urge the department to keep in mind that some remote communities are resupplied only once per year. Businesses in those communities will need sufficient time to acquire any equipment or supplies that might be needed to comply with the act, and perhaps to also adjust the quantity of tobacco products they bring in. The committee, therefore, expects that the act will not be in force for at least several months.

The Minister and committee agreed to four amendments to the bill during the clause-by-clause review. The first amendment removed the prohibition on selling tobacco products in establishments that sell liquor. The committee requested this change in response to concerns that some people might be more likely to drive while under the influence of alcohol to purchase cigarettes if they are not available in the bar.

Two further amendments to the bill make it an offence for young people to attempt to purchase tobacco products, with a maximum fine of $200 for a first offence and $500 for further offences. The committee requested these amendments in order to balance the heavy penalties for businesses and staff who, even inadvertently, sell tobacco to minors, by putting some responsibility on young people themselves to obey the law.

The final amendment removed a provision from the bill that protected the government from liability for damage to evidence seized under the act.

The committee also agreed to motions to amend the bill to increase the legal age to purchase tobacco products from 18 to 19. The Minister did not concur with these amendments because making the legal age higher than the federal legislation would curtail the opportunities for cross-enforcement with federal officials. This would result in additional enforcement costs of approximately $100,000 per year.

Bill 16 gave the committee an opportunity to talk generally with communities about whether they think attitudes towards smoking are changing. We were encouraged to hear that the culture does seem to be changing among adults, especially elders, however, we were concerned to learn that in some communities, children are still starting to smoke with their peers, especially on weekends when there is also drinking going on. Young people themselves told us that the way to address this is to have more recreational equipment and activities for youth. Other community members spoke about the importance of education, including initiatives like promoting smoke-free homes, and getting health care workers to visit people in their homes to explain the dangers of smoking, especially for people with low literacy who may not understand pamphlets and posters.

The committee realizes that Bill 16 is only one part of a much broader strategy, and would like to encourage the Minister and department in their efforts to combat tobacco use. We look forward to the results of the next school tobacco survey, and hope it will show that we are making progress.

Following the clause-by-clause review, a motion was carried to report Bill 16 as amended and reprinted, to the Assembly as ready for Committee of the Whole.

This concludes the committee's general comments on Bill 16. Individual committee members may have questions or comments as we proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Is the Minister ready to bring in his witnesses?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Is committee agreed? Sergeant-at-Arms, if you could escort the witnesses, please.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, could you please introduce your witnesses, please?

Mr. Chairman, I have with me Patricia Gall, our legal support from Justice; Dr. Corriveau, chief medical officer with the Department of Health and Social Services; and, Mr. Dave Murray, deputy minister of Health and Social Services, for his last piece of legislation. Thank you.

At this time, I would like to ask for general comments on the bill. Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the report of the Standing Committee on Social Programs speaks on a number of issues that we heard from the communities, but I just want to make a couple of points here that the interested public might want to know about how we have considered their input. I have been, and I think some of the Members in this House have been, contacted by those who really feel that we should not have made changes to the requirement that would have prohibited bars from selling cigarettes. I understand that there are studies done in this area and there are many experts who believe that there is a close link -- Dr. Corriveau could be one of them, I don’t know -- between the use of tobacco and the use of alcohol. When people are in bars or when they are in drinking environments, people who have quit smoking or who have never smoked or try not to smoke, may be more inclined to take up the habit again. The purpose of having that prohibition in this legislation before it was amended was to prevent that happening.

I think there is a lot of merit in that. I haven’t seen any scientific studies in that regard, but I think common sense and any knowledge of these two addiction issues could see how that could be very much plausible. I just want to state that I found that point very interesting. I have thought about it in my head and I think all of the Social Programs committee debated the issue at length. I think it really is a question about balancing the issue of how much, weighing the possibility of people going back to smoking when they’re in a drinking environment, to people, if they want to smoke in a drinking environment, they will anyway and they’ll try to get the tobacco, whether they get them from outside of the bar where smoking would usually happen or they would go to try to buy cigarettes elsewhere. So it was a balancing of what we’re preventing to do and what we’re causing side or second and third issues from preventing the sale of tobacco in bars.

I just want to make it clear here for the record that all the input from the public in this regard and the conversations I’ve had with people on the phone about this, I just want to make sure that everyone knows that input was not taken lightly and it was well considered, and this decision was made after much analysis and reflection and debating about it by all the Members.

I think that second issue that I’ve been getting some feedback on is the amendment that we’re putting here to put some responsibility and legal penalty for the young people who may, knowing that they’re not supposed to, that they may try to buy cigarettes in some way. I think that is, it’s a different step that we’re taking and there is a question about whether we are penalizing victims and penalizing youth who may be better served by a more positive feedback. I think that’s important and I think antismoking campaigns are important to let the young people know about the downside of smoking and there’s a lot of work that’s going on there. But I think on balance, for me anyway, and I’ll speak as a regular, you know, just one individual Member here, I think this is just a part of denormalizing smoking, sending out the message that smoking…We want to discourage young people from starting to smoke and that there are laws that prohibit them from buying cigarettes underage, and if they try to do that, knowing that they’re not supposed to, and trying to do it in a, you know, in whatever way they find, I’m sure there can be creative ways to do that, then there are going to be consequences for that action.

Once again, it’s a balancing question about what we want to do as a Legislature to discourage and reduce chances of young people from picking up the habit in the first place, because that is the best way to get at this problem, I believe. Just putting some onus and responsibility on the young people. I think for lots of young people who may choose to make the choice of trying to buy cigarettes, I think they are mature enough to know and take responsibility for and to deal with the consequences of that. I think most young people would have all the faculties and wherewithal to make the choice that there are some serious legal consequences to trying to buy cigarettes. So hopefully this will go a long way to…This is not in any way to be punitive excessively toward young people. I think it’s just putting some responsibility on them where that wasn’t there before.

I just want to make those two comments because it wasn’t the kind of detail and the individual opinion that we would be able to put into a committee report anyway. So thank you. I just want to say that I will be obviously supporting this bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister? Thank you. I now have Mr. Pokiak.

Calvin Pokiak

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, will support this bill, although it’s very hard for some of us bad habit people to go buy it, but I will support the bill. I guess, Mr. Chairman, I just have a couple of quick remarks to make. One is in regard to the opening remarks by the Minister in terms of the young people being charged. I hope that he makes it very clear to the young people that there will be consequences to them as well as to the vendors. I think if they are well known there will be consequences when they do go and they’re underage, there’s a heavy…Let’s just hope that the parents don’t end up paying for the fine. We have to make sure it is the young people, if they do get caught.

The last comment, really quick one here, Mr. Chairman, is that I know that the bill will take awhile to, it will pass through this Legislature here, but I’d just like to ask the Minister, between now and when the bill is passed, what is it the department is doing now to notify the vendors exactly that these are some of the rules that will come up?

Other than that, Mr. Chairman, I don’t have any other further comments and, like I say, I’ll support the bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The intent is to do the groundwork and give everyone lead time to know this is coming and we’re looking at a coming into force date of September 2006, which is a few months. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Anything further, Mr. Pokiak?

Calvin Pokiak

Nunakput

Yes, just one last one here, Mr. Chairman, in regard to some of the comments made from some of the communities. They mentioned that maybe health care workers can go out to explain the bill. I think it’s important also that if they do go out, that I think that, especially for the elders, they should have interpreters so they can understand the bill itself. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Member’s good advice and we’ve made note of that and we will be rolling out a communication plan and we will be ensuring that every community is made fully aware of this very new and important piece of legislation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Any further general comments from committee? Mr. Braden, please.

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Briefly, I think. This is very positive legislation. I’m going to be voting in favour of it. It continues to take a product and I guess something that’s been accepted in virtually every society and civilization in the world and we’re trying to change people’s attitudes about it after many, many generations of normality, in fact even desirability. We’re now saying that we’ve got to change our attitudes and we’re showing some signs of success. So these changes in societal behaviour are big projects that do not show immediate return, but from what I understand, the trends are there, and it is a reality. Now I’ve picked up from some of our community tours on this that it is now becoming uncool to smoke. When we hear that kind of thing, even in the smallest, perhaps quietest way, it signals that we’re getting to a tipping point in the attitude of society and I really hope that we can continue with that.

Mr. Chairman, it’s sort of in that respect that I would like to take this initiative and expand it into that other legal but very troublesome product, and that is alcohol, and hope that through the upcoming review of the Liquor Act and other progressive things that we can do as a Legislature and as a department, that we can undertake the same kind of commitment to the way our society regards and uses and abuses alcohol and the damage that it causes. I think that is our next challenge and I hope we can build on the successes and resolve that we’re showing in tobacco control and demonstrate the same thing legislatively in alcohol.

If I have a bit of a context or a question that I am going to put to the Minister and his staff, Mr. Chair, it would be in a bit of a snapshot of what is the current known use of tobacco in the Northwest Territories? What are our levels of consumption? What is the trend in tobacco use here in the Northwest Territories? Have we got any targets or measurements that we hope to attain over time through the introduction of this new act and any of the measures that are ongoing, Mr. Chair?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Dr. Corriveau, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I think it is important to highlight that this legislation for us is one prong of a multi-prong approach to dealing with tobacco and its denormalization. It is also focussed on normalizing a non-smoking lifestyle among youth, an initiative that we brought forward and actually got a lot of national attention in our Don’t be a Butthead campaign that has been a success beyond even any expectations we had with regard to the uptake where kids are being asked to pledge that they will grow up as non-smokers. This year in the phase two of our campaign, kids are asked to recommit to this and then to bring some friends along and expand the level of commitments across the NWT where we have well over 2,000 of our young people who have made that commitment.

This legislation is another piece that we believe is very important. We are starting from a point where, overall, our smoking rates are a little bit more than twice the national average. In some of our smaller communities, it is actually three times the national average, so we are coming from a long way. In the coming year, we will be planning our follow-up surveys to the ones that were done as a baseline when we initiated this strategy to start measuring in finer detail how much success we are having by age group and at the community level. At this point in time, we are hopeful that we will bring our rates down rapidly. I think one Member used an image of a tipping point, but things can move quickly in this area as in others. Once you get your momentum and you can find ways to sustain it, we are quite hopeful that our rates will come down.

Thank you, Dr. Corriveau. I now have Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you. Just a couple of things I forgot to mention. One, of course, is to thank the Minister and the department for bringing this law forward and the second thing is with respect to when this bill will come to force. Mr. Chair, I think that is a very important issue in this regard. There are going to be requirements on the part of retailers on what to do and not to do as a fall-off on this legislation. I think it is only fair that we, as a Legislature, give them sufficient time and resources where feasible to do that. I think that a similar situation existed with the Personal Directives Act. I believe we had discussions here about the lead time and how much education and communication strategies there will be. The Minister made commitments here to make sure that there were going to be some training in that regard, and the feedback we are getting from the ground is that may not have taken place as the way we had envisioned it. I cannot stress enough about the importance of making sure that there is a lead time to this. I would like to know if the Minister could indicate to this House as to what is the time frame he is looking at in terms of the notice that he is going to give the retailers who have to change the way they do their business. What sort of support services would there be for them to inquire and ask questions so that they could follow the rules? What is his communication plan or action plan to make sure that this legislation is implemented without causing too much trouble in a number of fronts? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the coming into force date is September 2006. Once this bill receives third reading and is given assent, we will be working with the Health and Social Services authorities to make sure that we inform all of the communities and all the involved people. There have been meetings with environmental health officers. There are going to be more in terms of how they are going to do the work. We are going to be communicating with all of the businesses. We are going to be working in conjunction with and trying to be as cooperative with the WCB as possible with their communication team so that there is a clear linkage between the two. We are going to, by May or June, identify the expected change. We are going to develop the correspondence and prepare the mailings. Right up until September, we are going to be working very assiduously to make sure this is rolled out effectively. Thank you.