Debates of March 24, 2004 (day 7)

Thank you, Madam Chair. On my right I have the deputy minister for the department, Mr. Mark Cleveland, and on my left Mr. Devitt, who is director of management services.

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Dent. We will start with general comments on the main estimates for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. General comments. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to offer some general comments on the department and its budget. The first issue I want to speak to is in regard to the Aurora College. I want to state that I believe that it is very important for our society and in jurisdictions like the Territories to have an advanced education institution. I do believe that Aurora College has come a long way, but it does have a lot more potential to fulfill. Especially in light of the training needs and employment needs that we are faced with and will probably continue to be faced with with all the economic opportunities that are before us. I feel that there is a lot more we can do with respect to resourcing Aurora College and especially for me, the Yellowknife Campus.

During the discussions in committee, I was provided with statistical information from the department which shows me that the enrolment of students, the number of students being enrolled in the Yellowknife Campus is quite similar to the number enrolled in the Fort Smith campus. I appreciate that the Thebacha Campus in Fort Smith is the main campus and Yellowknife is the regional campus, but I do believe at a certain point the resources have to be comparable to the demands being placed on a facility. I believe that Yellowknife campus needs a lot more resources than it is being currently provided.

One of the more serious issues for the campus is the fact that it does not have a stand-alone campus and that now it’s gotten to a situation where a lot of spaces are outside of the campus because the campus itself cannot sustain the demands that are being placed on it. Another of the more serious situations is the housing issue. I think the Members that are coming into the city are recognizing and living and experiencing firsthand what it’s like to deal with the housing shortage and housing demand and high cost of housing in Yellowknife.

What is happening right now is that there’s not enough housing for students at Aurora College and certainly they cannot afford to be in the market and rent apartments or anything like that being a full-time student while attending Aurora College. The Aurora College students have taken up, at least by my latest figure, 90 units at Northern United Place, for example. Those are units that would otherwise be available to other people in low-income categories or for seniors. I know there is a huge waiting list for seniors who normally would have gone into housing at Northern United Place and now they are lined up with everybody else and that line-up is not moving at all. Given that they don’t have as long a line up at the Aven's Court, the independent living there, the situation is really dire. I think I need to stress this, and this is something I need to work on and I am going to work on and push the Minister and the government to address within the life of this Assembly.

Madam Chair, I am as well aware as anybody else here about the fiscal realities, but I do believe we still have money to operate and we cannot close our books and go home because we are faced with a deficit. It just means that we have to pay closer scrutiny to the money that we are spending and that we are paying close attention to the priorities that are being given to various items that are coming to us.

I also understand that during the discussion of this department’s budget we were given lease costs and other expenses that go toward the Aurora College renting the facility at Northern United Place and it is not a small amount. We do spend a lot of money yearly already on these payments and I think there is an opportunity there for the government to not necessarily spend any more money than what it is now spending in that facility for utilities and such and rental costs and really do long-term planning to do a stand-alone campus building in Yellowknife Campus.

So I would like to ask the Minister at the moment what he has done in his time as Minister of ECE to look at this situation and what his plan of action is with respect to this issue. I understand he has, I’m sure, a myriad of issues that he’s had to deal with, but I want to get some indication from the Minister if he has addressed his mind to this issue. Thank you.

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, like the Member, am interested in ensuring that we have adequate programming space for all our students in the Northwest Territories, and one of the first things I did after becoming Minister was to take a look at what we had in terms of leases and where we might have opportunities opening up. So I asked the department when the lease would be expiring on Northern United Place and finding out that it was coming up in a few years, directed that they work with the college and Public Works and Services to do an examination of what we should be looking at, whether it makes sense to stay in the same place, whether it makes sense to stay in the same place and do renovations, or whether it makes more sense to look at occupying new space. At the moment there is some work underway. Again, it’s a three-way process between the college, Education, Culture and Employment and Public Works and Services to examine the programming that will be provided. Following that final sort of decision, that’s being led by the college at the moment, then we’ll take a look at space requirements and that part would be led mostly by Public Works and Services. Hopefully we’ll then, fairly shortly, have an idea of what the options are for the space.

As the Member has pointed out, there is a significant amount of rent that is being paid for the space. We are currently utilizing space outside what is now known as the campus, because there isn’t enough room there for what we’re offering and there is going to be some expansion, as Members know, because of the nursing program in the course of the next little while. So we are going to be short of space in our current location, even more short of space, and we are planning to make sure that we are well positioned to use the public dollars that we have to house the college in the best way possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can I get an indication as to what the time frame is that he has instructed his staff who is getting information for him? I think the Minister mentioned that there is partnership going on with the college board and such. I’d like to know from the Minister at what point we, as a committee, would expect to see him get back to us as to his findings. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can certainly advise the Member that we would be prepared to brief the committee this year. I expect that the programming will be decided and set by later this spring. I would expect then that over the course of the summer that the space requirements can be decided from that and determined. Then by fall we should have some options available for the space that we can present for consideration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see that I have about nine seconds. I’m prepared to get back on the line-up if there are other Members who want to raise points.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, just with respect to Aurora College and possible increased vocational training opportunities to our youth, especially with all the plans of industry and growth that we’d like to plan for in the future. I’m just wondering if there’s appetite within the department to look at alternative training facilities, particularly creating some of those facilities in the Nahendeh riding.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, for the most part there won’t be any considerable growth in permanent facilities for the college outside of the three campuses that we have. But the college is certainly anxious to be involved in training and has worked extensively to develop partnerships in the oil and gas industry in particular. We’re always looking for ways that the training can be provided in the regions. There’s an awful lot of mobile training that is offered and it’s offered usually in conjunction with industry and doesn’t require the same sort of investment in infrastructure to have a permanent building to put it in. It can be delivered in communities and provided to people close to where they’re going to find job opportunities. We find that’s a very successful way to deliver that kind of programming. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Chairman, I’d like to thank the Minister for that response because that’s the type of thing that I’m particularly interested in. It’s just with respect to if we’re going to identify a priority region, which is happening in this case, in particular with the pipeline training in the oil and gas sector. It’s being impacted in the Deh Cho and I’d like to see at least some future direction, some future concentration of our training, particularly in the trades like welding and carpentry, given thought of in our region. I don’t know if it’s in the particular plans of the department right now, but I sure would like to stress that point right now and ask the Minister if there is some direction given by their department to look at that and head in that direction. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the department is going to be offering through the career centre over the next couple of days, some seminars to make sure that more people in the area are aware of what sorts of opportunities for training are going to be available in the oil and gas field in the next little while. There is very shortly a significant training proposal for federal monies that’s going to be made that includes a partnership that is made up of a number of aboriginal groups, including the Deh Cho First Nations, industry and this government to try and make sure that we can expand even further the amount of training that takes place in the regions. This training would be targeted at the Deh Cho and other regions in the Mackenzie where the employment is likely to be targeted.

I’d like to assure the Member that we are, as a government and department, working to make sure that we don’t miss any opportunities that we can find to expand our training for northern residents, particularly to make sure that they’re ready to take advantage of opportunities in the oil and gas field. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m just trying to get assurances from the Minister that the training will help develop our northern youth and our northern communities, especially to just prepare ourselves for the planned impacts. I believe the Minister made reference to ASEP, the aboriginal skills employment partnerships program. I would just like to ask the Minister that.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that’s one of the programs that I was mentioning. I understand the proposal is very close to its final stage in draft form and almost ready for submission. One of the big advantages of that kind of training proposal is that the industry partners with their involvement make sure that the training is targeted specifically at the jobs that are going to be available and they commit to taking on the people who have been trained through that program. So we know we’re training people for the jobs that will be available. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Chairman, no further questions at this time. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. General comments. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wasn’t expecting to come back to the line-up so soon, but I’m pleased to have the opportunity. I have some questions to the Minister on his opening statement. The first one is to do with the early childhood development. Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Social Programs made quite a lengthy comment about the positions that committee Members have on this issue. I think it’s not always the case that Members from small communities and larger communities agree on an issue so solidly, and this was definitely one where all Members in the committee were able to present evidence that we see in our respective constituencies where these programs are having a difference and it’s really providing a positive impact to our young children. I know that in my riding of Range Lake and at Range Lake North School there were various literacy initiatives and other things that were happening in the school where teachers have gone out of their way to comment to me that it’s one of the best things that they’ve seen come along. Some of them have been teaching young children, kindergarten children for over 30 years. They cannot say enough about all the good things this is doing in terms of giving an early start to the children and helping them read and helping them get into the social setting and school setting.

I think that when we discuss the motion and when we discuss the specific section of the budget we will have more opportunity to elaborate on this, but in the meantime I would like to ask for the Minister, on page 2 of his opening statement he stated that the department plans to spend $4.4 million on early childhood development activities, but in the next paragraph he mentions that the three-year early childhood development initiative ends at the end of this month. I’d like to know if the Minister could state for the record how much money is being cut in that second paragraph and what are the things that he’s able to do with the money that he is keeping on the budget and what precise things are being cut out or that at least the Minister is proposing to cut out of his budget this year. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I’d like to say that I appreciate the committee’s comments on the early childhood development program. Like the committee, I believe very strongly that it’s important that we provide this kind of programming for the youngest people in the North. The early years are the most important and we have with this type of programming a real opportunity to significantly impact their future. So it was quite troubling to me that we were going to have to reach the end of the funding for this programming and I must say that I, with the committee, agree that this is an area that we should be looking for. If we can find extra funds this would be one of my priority areas in which to put it.

Now, the Member asked how much we were going to be cutting. It works out to about $1.3 million in reductions from our department. This is on top of what the Department of Health and Social Services cut. They also had money under the early childhood development framework for action. I think in total the monies were approximately $3 million between the two departments.

In terms of what, in fact, is being cut from Education, Culture and Employment, we’re losing contributions to the healthy children initiative. The funding for that is dropping from over $3 million to $2.2 million in this budget that we’re proposing. We’re losing some of the money in programs that included programs like the language nests, which did involve typically elders working with younger children to help them gain literacy skills and also help develop aboriginal language skills.

There were a number of areas, but when I say they were carrying on with $4.4 million in expenditures we still have, as part of the department, a responsibility for some expenditures. So we have had to reduce the amount that was in the framework for action, but we still will have almost $1.7 million in early childhood programs which go towards day care spaces and provide, for instance, an increase for Aurora College for the early childhood education certificate program, which is a transfer from contract delivery last year. It also includes, as I said earlier, $2.2 million in healthy children initiative funding.

So that funding isn’t disappearing completely, but it has had to be reduced significantly with this cut. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I ask the Minister whether this reduction in his budget would decrease the funding that has in the past gone to the NWT Literacy Council, who has benefited from getting money from the GNWT as well as some of the federal programs to introduce a lot of literacy initiatives, and ones that have made some headway. I don’t know if they will have a direct impact there, but I would like to have confirmation on that from the Minister.

Another comment that I want to add, which I think is important, is that what he has been hearing about this program is that in the last years that this has been in place, it has made very huge progress. A three year is a critical time and any program that begins takes that much time to get going and get started. The unfortunate thing with this is that when the program infrastructure got put into place and got implemented and started seeing some results that we are basically, in large part because of the reduction, not complete elimination but a reduction, we are really cutting the legs from under some of these very successful initiatives. So I wanted to make that point and then go back to the question about what kind of direct impact this might have for the NWT Literacy Council if any. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to answer the Member’s first question, there is still $251,000 for the Literacy Council to maintain their program. Where that money is coming from is federal monies that we are going to be flowing through to them to allow their programming to continue. The federal contribution is carrying on for another two years. So even though the territorial money is sunsetted after three years, we did have some federal money for the same source of programs.

The Member had asked about what sorts of things had been cut. I had mentioned the language nests, the family learning kits, the childhood family resource centres. Those sorts of areas are the ones that are going to feel the impact of this cut. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. I think the family learning kits is one of the things that a local school teacher has given me as anecdotal evidence of something that is quite simple, but quite effective. It is something that she really thought that we should continue doing. I really think that there is power within this Assembly to see how we could save this, although I know that this is supposed to expire in a week.

Mr. Chairman, I have a supplementary question on the funding cuts for the NWT Literacy Council. Could the Minister tell us as to what the NWT Literacy Council would have received in combination with the federal funding had the GNWT contribution not been cut this year as a result of this reduction? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

I can’t say exactly, because there wasn’t an agreement that goes beyond this year for funding. For instance, last year, the family learning kits which were done in collaboration with the NWT Literacy Council, there was $76,000 in funding. That is one of the areas that is being cut. We have still got the $251,000 that is still going to be going to them. We are going to have to discuss with them how that is being spent, but it is not an easy number to come up with because the amount that the Literacy Council got each year was not the same. So there wasn’t a set amount that was going; it always depended on how things were negotiated. I would like to say to the Member that, as I have said, I share her concern about cuts to this area, and I would just like to assure her and all Members that I will continue to work with my Cabinet colleagues to see if there is any way that we can find any extra funds that this would be the first area of priority for me to see a reinvestment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next I have Mr. Allen.

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be as brief as I can. I want to centralize my discussions on a small component of the Minister’s statement in the career development and maximizing northern employment. I will readdress this in the response he provided me in the Oral Question 10-15(2) in part by employment opportunities. In paragraph three, he said in September of 2003 the Government of the Northwest Territories organized labour groups to begin discussions about the construction of the proposed Mackenzie Valley pipeline. It speaks a bit about a meeting with the northern pipeline projects, Alberta Building Trades Council and the Christian Labour Association of Canada. In follow-up to that, I had received another letter from the NWT Federation of Labour, which replied to my question to the Minister, and it makes reference to the fact that given the past experience of the Northwest Territories' pipeline construction and it points out the Canol project Painted Mountain in Norman Wells, and it seems to me that they understand some of their misgivings. Although we support the development of future pipeline development, we also want to talk in the context of the pipeline construction and the role that the unions play. We talked about the United Association is a craft union representing welders, plumbers, pipefitters, the International Union of Operating Engineers, representing equipment operators, labourers, the International Union of North America represents skilled pipeline labourers, the Teamsters represents equipment haulers, and a number of others. I am curious to know, in terms of investment in maximizing northern employment, that the Minister has taken a more concerted effort to identify -- and again I am going to phrase it in the context of my earliest question -- how we have influence over the union politics. It concerns me, Mr. Chairman, that our past experience doesn’t give us too much clout in the context of the overall picture.

I think I raised the point yesterday to the Minister of RWED that we really have to move away from socioeconomic agreements, going to more covenant agreements that would give legal binding to any kind of agreement. So I am going to ask the Minister if he has worked with those specific unions identified and tried to advance training opportunities in the context of maximizing northern employment. That would be my first question to the Minister. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Subsequent to the Member’s question in the House and my response to him that he has referred to, I heard from the Federation of Labour and they offered to meet with me to discuss this issue. I have accepted that offer and indicated to them that I am prepared to meet to carry on these discussions. I am purely confident that unions will understand that northerners expect to see significant northern involvement in employment in the construction of pipelines in the North, and I think it is incumbent on us, through the Minister of RWED, to negotiate a good agreement that involves benefits, including employment. Then we will have to make sure that we all work together, the companies, the unions and the government to make sure that we have northerners trained and ready to take on the odd jobs in the pipeline and the oil and gas sector as those jobs come up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Allen.

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the Minister because I think he gave an overview of what the level of expectations are along the valley. I think the important point I want to make in my final comments, Mr. Chairman, is that I think we need to take a more proactive role, and talk to not only the unions, but also the private sector, and try to develop a strategic plan that would ensure that we do begin to train the employables on actual pipeline construction sites so they will be prepared from a skill level to participate in the actual project. I believe it is not harmful.

If I may go back, even though we have a greater percentage of our northerners as skilled pipeline labourers, that would be beneficial to our territory. I am trying to define exactly whereabouts would be the best areas we could concentrate on this at the earliest possible level in trying to ascertain training opportunities for our northerners. I believe there are two areas that we have an opportunity to concentrate on, and they are the International Union of Operating Engineers who represent the equipment operators, and the Labourers International Union of North America who represents skilled pipeline labourers. So I am just curious to know, and certainly would support the notion that we should be concentrating on those two specific union groups to put into effect some kind of training program at the earliest possible date. With that, I am going to ask the Minister, through you, Mr. Chair, if he would address that key question. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Mr. Dent.