Debates of March 24, 2004 (day 7)

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to, for the record, state that my background is employee relations and I was quite active with Dome Petroleum in the Beaufort in developing their labour force. One of the areas that we do need to ensure that when we talk about training programs is that we do give the trainees the opportunity to accumulate the seat time. Seat time is a common phrase used in industry in that the longer they spend on the actual job site the more seniority they get in terms of union standards. I am just going to ask again quickly if the Minister would have his officials and his partners negotiate with the union representatives where we can in effect get trainees onto the job site, give them a tenureship on a piece of equipment that would be used in the North. I think that would be one of the first steps that we should take in terms of trying to maximize northern training and northern employment opportunities. With that, Mr. Chair, I will conclude my comments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will follow up on the Member’s advice.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Allen. At this time I would like to ask committee if it is okay if Mr. Delorey can take the Chair for now.

Agreed.

The Chair recognizes Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When you break down this Department of Education, Culture and Employment, we have some extremely important issues in regard to education in the Sahtu; very strong in the cultural component of this department and the potential for employment within the region of the Sahtu, and also down the whole Mackenzie Valley. Mr. Minister, your department and staff have a huge responsibility with regard to the Northwest Territories. There are some good people on your staff. I have worked with them before and they work hard. I know in my dealings with them in the issues of residential school especially, that some of the good people there in your department helped us out a lot there.

In saying all of this, Mr. Chairman, the one issue that has come forward is there might have been rumours about the language nest program, and you have confirmed them today. Mr. Chairman, I want to talk about the importance of this, because I had several letters and phone calls from my constituents in the Sahtu region who wanted to have a really good understanding about why this program is being cut and what can this department do in terms of reprofiling or looking at ways that they could continue to support it, because the concerns I have are that this program is worthwhile. A lot of Members have talked about it and even the Minister has commented on looking at this worthwhile project. The language nest programs that we have in the region provides an opportunity for our young people to connect with our elders. That is a very culturally significant point of education in that our young children are going to one day, hopefully, through good training and good leadership, be sitting in our seats.

A lot of our guidance has come from our elders in the Sahtu region, and a lot of our survival depends on our elders. However, today it has changed because of the different lifestyles, yet we still look to our elders for guidance in how we live our life today. In this short time that we have with these young people that we in our communities are exposed to the aboriginal language to our people, and we do it through storytelling, drumming, something that they are very proud to be associated with in terms of our culture.

So, Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Minister and his Cabinet also there is funding that is there but it is for the Literacy Council, they have their own mandate, they have their own views, and that $251,000 is not very much in terms of some of the aspirations and initiatives that the regions want to do or the communities want to do, especially in small communities where the language nest program has been very successful in terms of what I am hearing, and the concerns from the communities that somehow this language nest program could be looked at again by the Minister and his Cabinet to see if there is any way that they can look at saving the program. Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make those comments because it is important, and I want to hear from the Minister. I may have one more question after this, depending on how much time I have left.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Cabinet was certainly aware of the recommendation that the committee made, and there was some discussion about it. As I have said, I think we would all agree that investments in early childhood programming are significantly important investments, but we haven’t yet found a way to say that we have the money to put this back into the budget yet. As I have already said though, this is something that we are continuing to discuss. I am convinced that this is the area where we should try and look for an opportunity to reinvest, and we will continue to do that.

In terms of the language nests, I know I have heard these comments from across the Territories. I know a number of Members have gotten letters from their constituents and passed on the information to me that this has been a very useful program. It certainly does tie into culture across the Northwest Territories. It is close to $900,000 that was being spent on it this year. So that is not a small amount of money, it is not easy to find. That part alone is almost a million dollars of what we have given up. So we have heard the concerns, and I don’t have the answer yet, but I am going to continue to look and to work with my colleagues on Cabinet to see what we can do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you very much. I just wanted to also mention the importance of supporting our children and youth in schools. I was really pleased to read the increase of the enrolment of our schools from 1998-99 to 2003-04. There is a significant increase in our schools, and the department must be doing something right or something that the communities and our schools are doing right together to get our students to that level of enrolment. It shows that the students, teachers, and the communities are doing something right that got our kids into school. The numbers are up and we need to continue to support our children as they go through to high school, college, and post-secondary programs. We are looking for them to receive some good educational training and come back to our communities and be very productive especially when it comes down to something like the Mackenzie gas pipeline and other initiatives that may happen in our communities. Again, I will hammer back onto the point where it is going to have all of this training, but for our students to know that hopefully there will be some strong cultural initiatives. We know who we are, but we also need to know and practice our culture, and it has to be supported by this government. That is why I said, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Minister has…(inaudible)…Department of Education, Culture and Employment, it is a huge department, and that for our people our culture is who we are in our livelihood. So I want to see through the main estimates. I will look at some of these initiatives that the department is going to be taking on throughout the life of this government, and I want to just keep my comments to that, Mr. Chair. I know my time is running our and I want to respect other Members. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. I didn’t hear too many questions. Did you want to respond Mr. Dent?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Yakeleya was commenting on the improvement of keeping young people in school. I must say that I was really pleased to see the committee and their report reflected on the importance of community and family support for education. Because while the Department of Education and this government have a role to play in schooling, when it comes to culture and language the schools should reflect and reinforce the community. We aren’t there to teach culture and language as much as we are to reflect it. There has to be a significant buy-in from the community, from the families, from the parents in order for the system to improve. What I find most heartening about the increase in numbers is that that has to mean that we are seeing more and more support from families and communities for our schools. We have some areas where it is really strong and that is typically reflected then in the participation rates and the success rates of kids in school, and we need to do more to make sure that we get that family and community support because that is the biggest predictor of what I can see of whether or not we are going to have success in the schools. Again, I am really pleased to be able to say that we are seeing some increases in numbers, and I along with Members of the committee, want to keep encouraging the people in our communities to recognize the important role they play in helping young people be successful in school. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I recognize Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I would like to reiterate with some of my colleagues about the early childhood development program. This program is very important to the smaller communities because it does help the young children be able to work with elders, and also prepare them for the…(inaudible)…too. In the opening comments, Mr. Chair, the Minister indicated that the department will re-evaluate the program to determine if they can invest in the future. Mr. Chair, can the Minister find out how long this evaluation will take place in order to fund it further down the road? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the evaluation should be completed in April. Then what we would hope to be able to do is if we are able to find any new money, use the evaluation of what programs that have been particularly successful, use that as a guide for where we should then start to emphasize the new money going towards, if we are able to find some new money. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is good to hear. Hopefully we can see the re-evaluation by the end of April as he mentioned. Another one that I would like to get into is the school system in his statement. Again, my colleague Mr. Yakeleya indicated the increase in graduates. Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the Minister, of those graduates, how many of those aboriginal people are actually up to par when they do go down to college or university? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to graduate, it means that you typically had to achieve certain marks in the departmental exams, and we use the same exams as Alberta. So if we have people who are graduated they should be at the same level no matter what community they are at. I know that there are concerns about how many programs can be offered in all communities, and the small schools have a real problem with delivering the same level of programming as a larger school does. So not everybody has access equally across the Territories to the same level of program. In general, the level of schooling on graduation is supposed to be the same. I know that we have had a considerable amount of discussion at the committee about whether or not we are delivering the same sort of program in the smaller schools. I think one of the concerns is whether or not in high school young people are at the same level. Sometimes there are some problems with being at the same grade level in the 10th year or the 11th year of schooling, but if somebody graduates they should have the same level of schooling. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The experience that I have encountered in my region, again I will go back to the level of education, it is well known and I am aware of it that a lot of our young people, although they end up graduating from Grade 12, they still lack the education that's required. There are some Grade 11 students in some of my communities and they are supposedly in Grade 11, but they are at a level of about Grade 8. They say that the level of education is the same as in Alberta, Madam Chair. I think the department should at least try to ensure that our students are getting the required education as in Alberta.

I think the department should consider or review their programs in terms of the level of education in the small communities. I would like to see a comment from the Minister. Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Response, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think Mr. Pokiak is talking about two different issues. One of the issues is whether or not children are all at the same grade level if they're in the same grade. It's not uncommon that you have differences. For instance, in a Grade 4 classroom you will have some children who are reading at a Grade 2 level and you may have some children who are reading at a Grade 6 level. The teachers can typically deal with the different groups they have. Some kids will need extra help and some kids will need extra challenge. So it isn't unusual to have in a classroom a variation in terms of what the kids are doing and at what levels they are achieving. But if a person passes a Math 30 or a Math 31 course in the Northwest Territories, they are passing the same test as given to kids in Alberta. So if they achieve that at graduation, that means that they have achieved the same level.

What is often happening is that in our smaller communities the range of programs that we can offer, the courses, are not as great as in the larger communities. So young people who graduate may not have the courses they need to get into the post-secondary area of study that they want to go into. That is an ongoing challenge for us, and it is one that in the smaller schools is problematic. I have discussed this issue with the Chairs of all of the divisional education councils. It was one of the issues that came up for discussion when we had meetings here on February 24th and 25th this year, and it is an area that we have agreed we need to find some way to work at improving the range of courses that we can offer in the smaller schools. So it is something that we're going to try and work on. I don't have an answer for how we're going to do that yet, to give the Member. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to go to the Aurora College again. Maybe I'll defer that and go into income support programs. This program does help some residents in the Territories…(inaudible)…of my region. I'm just wondering at this point in time, in the Minister's opening remarks he indicated they are examining income support levels for food and personal care. Does the department have any idea when the examination of income support whether to increase in the communities will be available? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. As I said in my opening comments, the rates are adjusted every year. Subsequent to the Bureau of Statistics doing studies to find out what the rates should be adjusted to in each community, the rates were adjusted in November of last year. So we would be looking at doing it again as we get into winter this year.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Pokiak, general comments.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just one follow-up question with regard to income support. Will the department, Madam Chair, look at the policy with regard to income support? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have committed in this House to make a presentation to the Standing Committee on Social Programs to go through the policies underlying the program, outlining what the benefits are now, and discuss with the Members what might be some options for change within the program. So it is my intention to do that with the Standing Committee on Social Programs, hopefully within the next little while.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Anything further, Mr. Pokiak?

Thank you. Just one last one, Madam Chair. Under the capital acquisition plan, it does name a few programs that are planned right now. I'm just wondering what the department will consider as part of the plan. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chair, I'm sure that when we get to those pages in the budget I'll have it in front of me. I know that the Mangilaluk School is in the plan for some time in the future; I can't remember exactly which year it is being proposed at this point. But I am advised that we're starting to see planning monies in 2007-08. That is when we should start to see programming being designed for that school. I know that the Member has talked to me about this issue and how important it is to the community. We face so many serious problems with schools on piles that are collapsing, and we've just had a real problem finding enough money to come up with what we need to adequately address the capital acquisition plan. So we've had no option except to put a number of projects back. I suspect that that's a year later than what we were hoping to see that project, but I haven't been able to find adequate money to deal with all the demands that we face for projects in the department. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list I have Ms. Lee, but Mr. Delorey hasn't had an opportunity to speak yet on general comments, so I will go to Mr. Delorey next. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few comments on the Minister's opening remarks. I was going to talk about the early childhood development program, but it has been addressed quite extensively already and I am sure the Minister has gotten the message that that's a program that everybody is hesitant to see disappear. I know that the Minister will do whatever he can to find funds to keep that program going. But I was wondering if the Minister could maybe expand a little bit more when we're giving numbers out how they relate to actuals, how we can see where the system is improving. For example, on page 3 of his opening comments where the Minister mentions that in 1999 there were 81 aboriginal grads and in 2003 there were 113. Then he goes on to say that there were 620 students enrolled in community high schools in 1998-99 and in 2003-04 there 872.

What I'm trying to get at, Madam Chair, is this could be strictly from an increase in population, for example. Is there a direct correlation between the 81 and the 113 in 620 and 872? How do those figures show any kind of an improvement in the system?

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. In fact, for instance this year the school population has dropped by just under one percent. So school populations haven't increased very much at all over the last four or five years. What we're finding is a good part of the growth is in the smaller communities when it comes to secondary school graduation. So it's not something that doesn't indicate that we are seeing an improvement. Given the small numbers of people we have in schools, the numbers tend to jump up and down a fair bit, but the trend seems to be going the right way. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Delorey.

Thank you, Madam Chair. When you put out a figure of 620 and 872 for enrolments in community high schools, it would probably be easier to ask which ones are not included in this figure. Yellowknife wouldn't be for sure and probably not Hay River. What schools wouldn't be involved in this figure? It would probably be far less than are not involved than what would be involved. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chair, the aboriginal numbers will include children in all communities. So it doesn't exclude any schools. But we can break it down by community, we can provide it by region, we do it by regional centres, we do it by smaller communities. So we have a broad range of statistical numbers that we're quite prepared to provide Members. We have a bi-annual report that we put out that puts a lot of this information in graphs and the numbers available for the members of the public. The next one is due in the next couple of months. The deputy is telling me he's not going to get out until the fall, but I thought it was the spring it was due. We do publish this information, and if any Member has any questions about the detail, we can put that information together very quickly and we would be pleased to provide it in writing to Members if they have any questions about specific schools or specific regions.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Delorey.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Then I guess I was reading this a little wrong, because I was thinking this 620/872 as the total enrollment in the schools, but I take it this is just aboriginal students then. Okay. My next question would be what does it look like in the total population of kids? In the enrollment in high schools in general are we seeing more kids entering the high school and going on to graduation? Do you track those figures at all, and how is that looking? Are we constantly improving in that area, as well? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chair, the total graduation rate jumps up and down a significant amount because of the small numbers of young people in our school system. So there can be a large variation year to year. But in general the trend does appear to be in the right way, it is increasing, and it seems to be consistent in smaller communities, in regional centres. It isn't something that appears to be concentrated in just the regional centres and not in the smaller ones. So we do seem to be getting more graduates as a percentage throughout the system. Since the numbers are staying constant, if you're getting a bigger and bigger number through, it does tend to indicate that we're improving.