Debates of March 24, 2004 (day 7)

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Delorey.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Could I get the Minister to expand a little bit on the second paragraph on page 3 where, for example, the department is preparing an aboriginal language and culture-based directive that it will be sending to all education authorities outlining program requirements and criteria for expenditure? Could you expand a little bit more on what directive is going to be? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, when I met with the Chairs of the divisional education councils we had some discussion about how…Some of the funds that we identify in the formula are categorized as funding aboriginal language programming. There has been a fair amount of latitude about how that money is being spent, and we are concerned that in some instances it may not be being used in the ways in which we had expected that Members of this Assembly would expect. So what we're going to do is work with the DECs. This isn't something that we're just arbitrarily imposing ourselves. We have had staff working with the divisional education councils to see if we can't come up with a directive which would reflect what we think the expectations are for the use of that money, and make sure that it is actually being used for aboriginal language programming.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Delorey.

Thank you, Madam Chair. On the bottom paragraph where the Minister states In addition to the federal funding over $2.6 million, we propose another $2.29 million. That includes an additional $100,000 to the support of establishing two language boards. Is that $100,000 the total expenditure for those two languages boards? How does that play into that? Is there more money out of this $2.29 million that's going to be going into the operation, the running, whatever, of the languages board, or is the rest of it actually going to be going into programs? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chair, there may be a slightly higher cost to the boards over the $100,000. We're hoping that we can get them to operate for that amount. Remember we're just starting them in July of this year, so it's not a full year of programming. It will be close to that, we think. So the goal is to have most of the money going to programming and keep the cost of the boards as low as possible.

This $100,000 is reflective of what was transferred from the Legislative Assembly. That's the amount of money that the Assembly had in its budget to operate these boards, and when the responsibility for the boards was transferred to my department, this money was also transferred over. So that's the money we have. If it costs a little bit more, we'll have to find a way to deal with that. But we're reasonably confident it will be close to that.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Delorey.

Thank you. Just one more area I would like to touch on, Madam Chair, and that is on maximizing northern employment or job training, whether it be in apprenticeship programs or getting people into the trades. It's an area that I've addressed a number of times over the last four years with the previous Minister of Education. At that time I got the same answer more than what I wanted to hear about. If we do it in one place we can't do it in the other. We have to do it right across the Territories. In an area such as Hay River if there's a huge interest in promoting the trades in the school, and we have a huge volunteer base there now and it's in big demand. Kids are really taking on to this. They have some work in carpentry, some work in welding, some work in automotive, but with very little resources and very little equipment to work with. Is the department still under the same impression, that there is no help for these areas? If we do it there, we have to do it right across the Territories. Are we going to find a way to help and promote in an area where there is a demand and to pick up students who are maybe falling through the cracks or whatever, if this would help? Is the department willing to look at areas where there is a demand? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think this is an issue that there's an interest for this in high schools right across the Territories. There is a lot of demand for improvement in this kind of programming.

When we had the meeting here on February 24th and 25th with the Chairs of all the DECs, we took an opportunity to talk about partnerships and we talked specifically about this kind of training. The Yellowknife Catholic Schools here have an example of how, through a partnership arrangement, they have managed to put together a fairly good operation. The people from Yellowknife Catholic Schools talked to the other Chairs to how to perhaps structure themselves and take advantage of opportunities. Yellowknife Catholic Schools have, for instance, offered their facility to the Dogrib Community Services Board so that their students could come in during the Yellowknife school break. The students at Chief Jimmy Bruneau School were attending, so they could come in and use the facility. They found opportunities to make the facility available to the college for pre-trades training. So what they've done is looked for opportunities to expand outside of what is normally considered within the box, and they've found sources of funding outside it.

As I said to the Chairs, this is really something that we're all going to have to get better at is looking for partnerships. Unless this Assembly is going to vote me a whole bunch more money, I'm not going to be able to respond to the demands. I certainly don't hear the interest in this just from Hay River, I hear it from communities across the North. Wherever there's a high school there's a demand for increased programming in the trades area, and it is a legitimate demand. We know there's a need for improved trades training, we know that there are jobs for young people if we can get them trained, but we're constrained by what we have in our budget and are able to provide. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list I have Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister and his colleagues for meeting with us today. I just have a couple questions with regard to the opening remarks by the Minister in the new program reductions and reinvestment in key areas. I was pretty sure that Mr. Delorey had stole my notes somehow, because he pretty much asked most of the questions that I was going to present, so I guess it's going to be pretty short. Again I can't stress any more than a lot of my colleagues who have already stressed the importance of the early childhood development initiative as far as development kids in realizing the importance of education and language and healthy lifestyles and the child/family relationships that it helps develop within the smaller communities. I'm just curious as to the evaluation process that is going to be completed in April, which is after the March 31st deadline when this program or initiative is going to be sunsetted. I'm just wondering if the Minister can tell me when the initiative of evaluating the effectiveness of this development initiative has come to light. Has it been in the last year that they've done the evaluation, over the last three years, or is it just in the last couple of months when it came to the attention of the Standing Committee on Social Programs?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. As I understand it, when the program was started three years ago, the intention that was always stated was to review it at the end of the program. So the review process wasn't started until fairly recently. So it hasn't been an ongoing review; it is something that has been recently undertaken.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just another question on that issue is on a program or an initiative that has received the positive feedback of all the players who have been involved in this initiative, has basically come to a lot of the Members' attention in the last few months just due to the fact that they knew the program was going to be sunsetted. I'm just wondering if the Minister could give me some indication as to when they do determine, and I don't think it's going to be too hard to determine the effectiveness of this program, through all the correspondence that the Legislative Assembly has been receiving as far as the early childhood development initiative. I know that the initiative has cost the government around $800,000 as far as our share into this whole program. I know that the whole department has taken some cutbacks in a lot of areas, but I really feel that reinvesting into this very important key area in education especially at the early childhood stages where research has shown us that the more your investment into it is the best return for your dollars spent. I'm just wondering if the Minister would be able to put every effort he can into finding some additional funding to keep the program running on a quarterly basis. I'm sure on a quarterly basis, $200,000 wouldn't be too hard of a find in a budget of close to $250 million. Just to keep this program going over the next three months after this evaluation process is done, then basically reassess it and reprioritize it after these quarterly stages.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it's certainly an area that I recognize the importance of investing in. I think all of my Cabinet colleagues do, as well. It is something that we have had some discussion about, and we are certainly interested in seeing what we can do. We will look at whatever options we can. Without having rolled it out, just off the top of my head I know that non-government organizations don't like to see short-term funding, and I don't know how excited they would be about quarterly funding because it's tough to get staff to commit for programs that you don't know how long they're going to be going. The shorter the term, the tougher it is to find people for them. I am certainly prepared to put every effort I can into seeing how we can find the money to reinvest in this program.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Villeneuve.

Madam Chair, I thank the Minister for his passion in this topic.

---Laughter

Moving on to page 3 of the statement, I'm just wondering if the Minister could just give me a short briefing on what the department is talking about when they want to expand student assessment activities in relation to the aboriginal languages and culture-based directive.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. There are two separate things that we're talking about in that paragraph. The first is the aboriginal language and culture-based education directive. That's the issue I explained to Mr. Delorey that we're going to try and reach an agreement with education authorities as to how monies will be spent supporting aboriginal language and culture-based education.

As a separate topic, I've also broached the subject with the Chairs of the education councils about the need to be able to demonstrate to legislators that the money that we're spending on education is in, in fact, improving the system. So we are also taking a look at expanding assessment activities, so we will have some yardsticks that we can use to demonstrate to the Legislative Assembly that the system is making improvements in how students are doing.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just moving on to the issues of colleges, there is the Aurora College system with expenditures of $28 million within the next year and it does have some primary responsibilities of basic education and training. I am just wondering what proportion, if any, of that expenditure is going to be directed to the development and the accreditation of a lot of the instructors that are in our northern college system -- and no disrespect here -- which do have the expertise in the fields they are instructing in, but really don’t have any education experience in educating. I am wondering what portion of that funding might be towards certifying our instructors or upgrading their structural requirements that the students require every year.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The college does have a program for professional development for the staff and as part of the collective agreement, we are required to invest in professional development for staff at the college. So there are ongoing opportunities for the staff to improve their skills and the college will, of course, be regularly encouraging people to do that because they, too, would like to see people encourage their skills. Having said that, we don’t have any territorial standards for certification. The college does oversee people to make sure the people who are teaching are qualified and doing their job properly.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I was going to save any additional comments on this early childhood funding that is being proposed for a cut, but seeing that there has been some tremendous passion and momentum being built here on this issue, I wanted to perhaps put an exclamation mark on the point we are raising here and enforcing. I think many Members have raised the fact that it doesn’t make sense to be evaluating a project as the project is being finished. I know, having been here long enough, if we pass this budget and go away, all the requests will be made to the Minister and the department to find the money and the commitment that Minister makes to try to find it may not result in keeping this program or reinstating it. I am not doubting the Minister’s commitment on this, but it’s just the way things shake out around here usually. I just think it’s really unfortunate if we were to cut this program where it seems to have such momentum and it’s got widespread support across the Territories.

I am just noticing how strange it is that it appears that some programs are just entrenched and they just stay and they get funded and funded and funded over again and then something new comes along and lights up a spark, you start making some differences and then three years is the time it takes to build some kind of momentum. Just when it’s getting some legs under it, we are going to cut them out. I don’t know if I can walk away from that knowing I have a hand in that. I think I would really urge this Assembly to try to figure out a way within the next week to see if we can save this program.

The understanding out there already is that this program will come to an end. It could be that all those people who have been involved in this program have found something else to do. We may be too late to resuscitate this. I think that goes to the argument of the difficulty restarting it once it has been concluded. If there was any chance at all to maintain this and improve this, it's now and we have a week to do so. I know, Madam Chair, that the Minister of Finance is very firm on saying and I am sure he’s going to do everything he can to keep a $50 million drop we got from the federal government to clear our deficit because he’s determined to have a deficit-free budget, but I do believe this year we were going to end up with a $47 million deficit. But now we have a $50 million correction from the federal government, so we may actually have $3 million to play with.

Madam Chair, I just want to say that’s how governments usually work. You get into fiscal difficulties and the Minister of Finance sends a directive to 13 departments and says we have to cut so much and then things get cut. People out there don’t care that ECE has to meet certain requirements and had to cut this program. They are going to say why are you still doing this or that, still spending $12 million in travel but you are going to cut $800,000 on a program that is really working for us in the communities. People don’t care where the money pockets come from and they may not really care that you have zero deficit versus a $47 million deficit and that’s a good government .I don’t’ want to make light of that, but it is our job to look at all priorities and see what our decisions are. I do believe we have to tighten our belts where we can and we should cut programs where there is a waste, but if there are programs that are working, we must make priority decisions. If there was anything that I have seen during the time of the review of the ECE budget and many other departments our committee reviewed, this is really something we must do everything we can to save.

So there is a lot of passion there. So that is my point and I think we are going to be dealing with this motion later on. We will continue to work with that. I am going to keep on fighting this. I do believe our committee has the support of the Members to do something about this.

I do have a question that is a lot less exciting, I think. I just want to ask a question on the general government department area because I don’t really know where it fits into the specifics. It has to do with the announcement, press release, that the Minister let out on February 10th about agreement to provide assessment of international credentials. This has been an important issue in the North as well, especially in light of the fact that our territory is part of Canada and the immigration trend has been to try to attract potential professional people to work and live in Canada. The NWT is certainly right up there. Whether they are doctors, lawyers, engineers or any other professions, in the past those people have had problems getting the proper credentials to practice their profession in Canada.

Reading the press release, I have some questions on the details. I would like to know what professions, trades or qualification areas the assessment service applies to. I understand we are using the service of Alberta. Do those residents in the NWT who want to be qualified for their international credentials have to apply to Alberta? Are there any linkages to any federal funding programs that I know are available in other jurisdictions? For example, in British Columbia, I understand there are pilot programs to provide financial support to engineers, for example, who are educated in other countries, to train to get their credentials up to speed. I am sure they have all the credentials, it’s just being qualified for Canadian papers. Those are three prongs to my questions that are quite unrelated to my first passionate point. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. I think this would be an appropriate time to give Mr. Dent some time to contemplate the answer to those questions while we take a short break. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

We will now call Committee of the Whole back to order. We left off with Ms. Lee asking a question. Ms. Lee, did you want to restate that question, or is the Minister ready to answer that question? Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member had asked three questions about a program that we have in terms of recognizing international credentials. What we have done is rather than try and develop the expertise in house, is we have actually contracted the service with the Government of Alberta so that it is their people who will evaluate. What has to happen is that the credentials have to be sent to the office in Alberta where they are then checked for authenticity, for consistency, and the institutional status to make sure that they would qualify. What happens then is a general statement of comparability with Canadian standards is issued. So some bodies will then recognize it. There are a good number that will, but not all bodies will recognize that. For instance, the College of Physicians and Surgeons still would have to have their own criteria for making sure that a doctor was able to practice in Canada, but there are other jurisdictions across Canada or other bodies across Canada that will accept them. For instance, BC speech language pathologists, their speech language society will recognize the criteria. CGAs in Nova Scotia will recognize. So it is quite broad and it does include organizations across Canada, but it is one where not all bodies will recognize the qualifications.

The Member had asked where people should apply. They can apply or get the address through any career centre. So all of the career centres in the Northwest Territories can make the information available. There is also a 1-800 number so that if people have questions about it they can get answers to their questions using the 1-800 number.

The Member also asked about a sponsorship program. In the Northwest Territories we don’t, for instance, have a program that provides sponsorship to people who are engineers in another country and they are planning to come into the territory to work. Those sorts of programs are run by each individual province or territory, and are set up exclusively by them. So the example from BC that the Member had mentioned is one that was set up by the province of BC, and if we wanted to do the same sort of thing we could. To date, our government hasn’t embarked on any of those sponsorship programs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Just a small follow-up to that question. I asked the Minister if he could tell us what professions this assessment applies to, but I am thinking it might be a really extensive list. I will rephrase that and ask if this assessment program that we have contracted with Alberta is subject to consent by professions. For example, the engineering society here, or architectural society or medical or law society, they have to agree to be part of this program, that it is not a blanketed application to all professions.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, this doesn’t replace the registration with their professional organization if that is required to practice a profession. What it does is the credentials are checked and then assessed against a Canadian standard, and what you get is a certificate that says yes, you meet the standards, then you could submit that to the professional organization and they would then review it and determine whether or not to agree that you should be able to practice. For instance, Alberta Opticians recognize the standards and are willing to accept them. It is a fairly extensive list, but it doesn’t replace the regulation that comes from the professional bodies.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. No further general comments. I will now move to the detail, 9-7 is the department summary. We will go to 9-9, directorate and administration, operations expense, total operations expense, $6.444 million. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Keeping up with the work that we have been doing, may I ask the Minister for the breakdown on the other expenses for $2.9 million? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under other expenses under the directorate, miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies, purchased contract services, and public relations. Actually, sorry, purchased contract supplies are $99,000; public relations, $36,000; under policy and planning the EFAP, family assistance program, education leave, miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased contract services there is $84,000. Mr. Chairman, I will start that again.

Under policy and planning, under EFAP and education leave there is $84,000; under miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased contract services there is $126,000; under management services, ECE system maintenance there is $2.239 million. Over half of that is for chargebacks on the computer system, by the way, that is for ongoing support for CMAS and computer chargebacks, for department contracts. Fax, copier, mail, and courier there is $155,000, and for miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies, purchased contracts services there is $193,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for that detail, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know that we are dealing with a level of details that we have not gone through before. I understand that, but what I am noticing now from the Minister’s answers is that the way the department reports these figures is quite different. So far we have had, I don’t know how many departments now, all of the other expenses were broken up with travel and transportation first, then material and supplies, and then contract services, purchased services, then often you would have another other expenses that would have a sub-breakdown. Whereas, the department here is breaking down each activity by another program underneath. I am wondering if it is possible for the Minister to just give a breakdown by travel, because that is what we are really interested in, and material services, contract services, purchased services for the whole activity section if possible. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, what I could do is if the interest of the committee is travel, what I do have is I have a listing of travel broken out for the whole department, and perhaps I could just run through that listing. This wouldn’t be under this task then, this would include all of it, so you get the total travel budget all at once if you’d like, you can tell where it is coming from. But I could break it out for the committee all at once here, and that might be the easiest way to do it.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Yes, that will take us to some length here, but also we are not disinterested in the other areas of other expenses either, such as material and supplies, contract services and such, where in some departments it was in the millions of dollars. Could the Minister help us out with that, please? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we would be happy to do it whichever way the committee would like. We have all of the information here and we can do it any way. It appears to me though, that Ms. Lee would prefer that I stick to mixing travel in as we go through each page, or separating it out as we go through each page, and I can do that too. For instance, on this page we are talking about under the directorate and administration, there is $73,000 for travel.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I think that is what the Member was looking for. Thank you. Ms. Lee.