Debates of March 24, 2004 (day 7)

Thank you very much. Then under this section on this page, could I get the Minister to give us figures on other categories, materials and services, contract services, purchased services I believe, and fees and payments if there are any, and computer software and hardware? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Certainly, Mr. Chairman. Materials and supplies is $95,000; purchased services is $191,000; contract services is $631,000; fees and payments is $106,000; other expenses is $199,000; computer hardware and software is $1.637 million.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you very much. May I just get some indication as to what sort of services are purchased under contract services for $631,000, as well as $1.6 million for computers seems high. Is there something unique about the programs that this division uses? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the computer chargeback, there are eleven systems that are maintained, so that is the chargeback that we pay for the maintenance of those systems basically. Mr. Chairman, I am advised too that that includes contract payments for software support. When you have software you often have to pay the manufacturer for support as well, so that is included in there. But this is all basically related to the 11 different systems, like the CMAS, the student financial assistance programs, the income support programs. There are a number of different computer systems that we run, 11 in total, and that is what the software support is for.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a last follow-up on that item. Could I get the details for contract services for $631,000? I believe what he just said has to do with the computer services.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister, did you wish to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The biggest portion of that would be for support for the CMAS system we pay to CGI.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

I am done with that item. Thank you.

Okay, back to directorate and administration, operations expense, total operations expense, $6.44 million.

Agreed.

Page 9-11, advanced education and careers, operations expense, total operations expense, $72.428 million. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am looking for a breakdown there too, please. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. A breakdown, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Of other expenses, I am assuming, Mr. Chairman, travel is $177,000; materials and supplies is $126,000; purchased services is $168,000; utilities is $526,000; contract services is $3.091 million; fees and payments is $17.116 million; and other expenses of $4.274 million; computer hardware and software is $212,000.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May I get some information on that fee payment for $17 million, as well as the contract services and further breakdown of other expenses for $4 million? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, that is a very difficult one for us to break out because it is included in all of the different tasks. It includes everything from colleges and ABE literacy. I am not sure; I could give a more detailed breakdown I guess by task if that would help Members, but I can’t break out where the fees would necessarily be in each of these. So I am asking for the direction of committee here. I can provide a much more detailed breakdown, but I can’t answer the question as to how to break out other expenses and separate out the fees, because some of it is included in each of the tasks and I don’t have it here divided up by fees.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. In the interest of time, I am prepared to just accept a commitment from the Minister to provide this info in as much detail as possible, but we are not looking for every dollar, we are looking for some categories. Secondly, I am interested in knowing, for the record, general ideas about what is entailed in the fees and payments and contract services, meaning what sort of things does that money go to? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, let me just read through this list that I have, it may answer the Member’s question, although it may give it in more detail than what she is interested in. Under the task colleges, and we are talking about the $25.69 million. Of that, minor capital under colleges accounts for $211,000; travel, materials, supplies and purchased services accounts for $44,000; under ABE and literacy, curriculum and exam development accounts for $28,000; travel, materials, supplies and purchased services accounts for $14,000; under apprenticeship and training on-the-job subsidy contracts there is $1.077 million; under apprenticeship upgrading programs, exam development, evaluation, tuition and promotion there is $313,000; under apprenticeship again, still, occupational training and development there is $417,000; diamond training subsidies of $34,000; and miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased services there is $66,000.

Under the task career and employment development, there are training on-the-job subsidy contracts for $611,000; oil and gas training on-the-job subsidy contracts and agreements is $350,000; youth at work is $780,000; career centres is $117,000; curriculum development and delivery, career counselling and training is $106,000; labour market development contracts is $60,000; miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased services of $73,000.

Under income assistance, we have systems support of $430,000; income assistance benefits of $12.74 million; community delivery costs of $914,000; seniors' supplementary benefits of $1.953 million; the wood fuel subsidy for seniors is $525,000; daycare user subsidies is $1.42 million; miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased services of $80,000.

Under student financial assistance we have remission write-offs to loan recipients of $4.140 million; and miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased contract services of $124,000.

Under the task regional management we have miscellaneous travel, materials, supplies and purchased services of $107,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was trying to save time by offering the Minister to provide this information in writing or in another form, but now that he has read it, I think that really speaks to how absurd and how nonsensical the way we are reporting our budget is. Under this other expenses, it has everything from money to buy a pen and pencil and a chair, to providing subsidies to citizens for wood. Other expenses is just a big, huge basket and there has to be a better way for the Department of Finance and government in the way they keep the books so that it enables us on this side of the table to see what it is that we are approving here. In my five years here -- this is my fifth year -- I don’t think we have ever gone into the kind of detail in examining other expenses. When you think of, for example, grants and contributions, somewhere along the way in the past somebody decided that grants and contributions should be listed. So every $10,000, $5,000 or $1 million grants and contributions are listed as an item with an explanation provided, but for some reason in other expenses, for example if government provides any kind of program, even if it is for $10,000 it is itemized, but if it is given as a contract to a private company in Yellowknife and they provide training on oil and gas it doesn’t have to be listed, it is just lumped up with $26 million in other expenses. There just has to be a better way, and I think what we are doing here highlights that, because I don’t think you can have the kind of accountability and transparency that people expect from us as long as we keep the books this way.

Also, we are not able to suggest and help the Minister of Finance make priority decisions about where we could cut, and where we can do better, and weigh the qualities and the merit of government expenditures if we keep on keeping the books this way. I am not laying blame on any individual government employee, I think it is just the way that the books have been kept and I think it is time that we change that. I have a question unrelated to other expenses under advanced education and careers, but the point about how we keep the books, I am going to make a point about that being dealt with at another forum, perhaps through a committee process.

I have a question on the advanced education and careers brought to me by a constituent, and it has to do with the lack of office or manpower there to provide support to people who are going through apprenticeship programs. It is my understanding that there have been a lot of reductions, or at least that there is not enough manpower to deal with those who want to sign up for apprenticeship or need support or supervision, in light of the fact that this is a very important area given the economic activities that are taking place. I think the Minister might be aware of this already. It has been brought up in the House a number of times. Could I ask the Minister whether he has taken any steps since he took over this office to better resource this area? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sure the Minister of Finance was listening to the Member’s earlier comments and will be prepared to respond to the Member at an appropriate time on those comments.

On her second point when it comes to the apprenticeship issue and the human resource support that we provide, I have indeed heard the concern expressed by Members here, and I have asked the department to take a look at that. There is a review underway right now. We currently have six staff supported by career development, or career centre staff across the Territories, but we are examining the situation to see what might be appropriate levels of support to provide in those offices right now. The Member is right; it is an issue that has been raised and it is one that I have directed staff to come back to me with a report on, and I will be moving forward shortly after I get that report.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee, your time has expired. I'm going to now move to Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the department a question in terms of advanced education and careers. In the last couple of months I have been in some of the communities in the Sahtu and they asked about the initiative of this department in terms of helping the young people for preparing them for oil and gas training. We have the highway there and a lot of people want to work on the highway. One of the issues they have talked about is having Aurora College come into the communities and start training them to help them obtain a class I driver's licence, or as mechanics or on heavy equipment in the Sahtu region. We have some oil companies that are also working in the Sahtu region that are willing to help, and it seems like we're having a hard time getting the department and the oil companies together to look at some training programs. I'm not too sure if the coordination is communicated well in the Sahtu region. Are we missing the boat somewhere? That was something they brought up to me during my visits into the communities there. I want to ask the Minister and his staff if the Sahtu can expect some solid commitments that when the communities are ready they could ask the Aurora College board or ask the department that we have some oil companies that may be coming back into the Sahtu that maybe you want to look at some advanced training or career training that falls in line with the Department of Transportation in terms of class I driver training. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would certainly like to hear if there are problems in communities in terms of there being a willing partner to work with us in training. I would like to know about it if there's a problem having us take advantage of it. We are always anxious to work with partners to make sure training can take place. I think in the past we've been pretty good through the regional offices. The staff have been very aggressive at finding partners and making sure that there are opportunities. But if something seems to be slipping through our fingers and if the Member hears about one, I would certainly like to hear about it because I'll make sure that we get moving on it right away. So, yes, the commitment is there that we will look for opportunities to find partners for training.

The Member talks about things like heavy equipment, mechanics and so on. For those we have to have the partners. We have to have partners who are willing to take on apprentices in order to provide that training. So if there are people in the region who are prepared to do that, we're anxious to work with them to make sure that young people can take advantage of the opportunities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister. I had one partner in the Sahtu communities who said they were interested in looking at an initiative where they can start training our young people, men and women, in terms of the heavy equipment in terms of mechanics and driving and so forth. That's something that maybe after this we can have some discussions. They were very interested, and they said we could look at this and this government to get the show on the road and start training our people here.

The other point I want to make to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is there was a company in Fort Good Hope that worked up there last winter. Some of the young students want to get into training, so this company donated a considerable amount of money in terms of saws and hammers and all sorts of carpentry equipment for the Fort Good Hope school. We have good partners and good business people in the communities to support our youth in advancing their careers. I'm not too sure if that has been communicated to your department, Mr. Minister. I was in Fort Good Hope when that thing happened and the teachers were smiling. This is where we want to get our young people in grades 10, 11 and 12 to start thinking about careers either in law or medicine or administration or carpentry or electrical and plumbing, and start steering them towards that direction and give them that direction. This company has done that in that sense, because it knows that it's good business for them. It helps the students and it's good for public relations with the communities. I wonder in terms of career development and career advancement, would the department look at communicating with the Chairs in terms of starting to steer the students into the trades area or into the world such as business, law, medicine and management. I would like to ask the Minister if he would somehow communicate that to the boards and his officials to take a look at this process here.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In our recent discussion at the end of February with the board Chairs, the issue of trades and the demand for trades training in the North was certainly a big topic of discussion. So I think that we are already taking that opportunity. There has been a real change in emphasis in the past six or seven years in education in the Northwest Territories in what sort of emphasis we put on trades training. There are so many future jobs in the Territories that are going to require trades training, that it really is an area that has a tremendous amount of opportunity. It's also a great area for young people looking at it, because they can take their four years of training, come out without having a lot of debt, they earn while they're learning, and the earning potential for people in the trades in many areas is as high or higher than what they can earn in professions.

I will take the Member's advice when it comes to recommending that young people take a look at the law, particularly given the shortage we have in the North of family law practitioners. I would love to see a few more northern lawyers, particularly if they are prepared to take on the practice of family law.

Counselling services are expected to be provided to all of the students in the Northwest Territories. It's supposed to involve their families. It's important that all of the schools and the counsellors and people in the education system are aware of what all of the opportunities are for young people, and that we're making sure that people are making the right choices so that they can move forward and achieve the education they need to be successful.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know I have about 40 seconds, so I'm going to make a really short comment here in terms of helping families who are on income support programs, that we could look at the ways of supporting families to be more self-reliant in the communities that would be more productive in the communities to look at other areas that this department has been doing. I lost my train of thought, Mr. Chair, so I'm just going to leave it at that. Trying to ask my question in 40 seconds just doesn't do it, so I'm going to leave it and put some more thought to it, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the best things we have going for us here in the Northwest Territories is our student financial assistance program. It's one of the best in Canada in terms of the extent of support we provide. I think it is one of the great advantages that we hold out to helping families stay in the North and helping attract families to consider growing here and living here and expanding the economy and the society we have.

In looking at the budget item here, Mr. Chairman, I see an increase in the program of $1 million, from about $11.8 million in this current year to $12.8 million in the coming year and I'm wondering if the Minister could provide a bit of detail on the growth in that line item. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is made up a couple of things. There is a bit over $800,000, as I mentioned in my opening comments, that relates to the expansion of the nursing program. Sorry; it's $269,000 due to the bachelor program and nursing program because of the increased enrolment. The $825,000 is a catch-up in student financial assistance. That's really just growth that has happened because of an increased uptake over the years. The money wasn't in our budget previously, but it got to the point that we couldn't cover it from other places and have now asked and received permission to put it in the base.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Thank you. An area that I'm hearing a little bit more on from some people in Yellowknife, and certainly there is a lot of traffic on the national media, Mr. Chairman, is in the skyrocketing rates of tuition and the expenses that students incur as they go about their post-secondary education. I would like to see if the Minister could tell us what are we doing to keep pace with this. I know, for instance, that we have certain caps on the amount that we provide for tuition. As generous as they are, we might be losing pace here. I'm wondering if the Minister could tell us are we monitoring this, what is the trend, are we in a situation where we should be looking at keeping pace? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Right now the average across Canada for tuition is about $4,000 a year, and our program provides a grant of $3,500. So students' families have to come up with about $500 towards the cost of tuition on average. There will be a number of programs, obviously, that are higher than that and some that are less expensive. But our program provides a maximum of $3,500 towards tuition, and that hasn't changed for quite some time, since the program was redesigned a number of years ago.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.