Debates of March 24, 2004 (day 7)

Mr. Chairman, what are the trends here? Should we be looking at augmenting this $3,500 in the relatively near future? Are we keeping watch on this? Are we keeping tabs on it? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Very shortly after I became Minister I raised this issue with the department and asked that they do some work to take a look at what trends were across Canada. I, too, had heard from people that our system appeared to be falling behind in some areas. So it is something that we're watching. We're looking for opportunities that we may have to restructure the program somewhat to try and make it more relevant, more useful. That is, of course, a challenge when we have the fiscal climate that we have. But, yes, it is something that hasn't fallen off the radar, it is something that we're looking at, and I'd certainly be prepared to provide a presentation to the standing committee. In fairly short order we should be ready with the work that I've asked to have done.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Thank you. In this area and coming from some of the very diligent questioning that Ms. Lee has been putting Ministers to in the area of other expenses, the Minister mentioned under student financial assistance about $4 million for loan write-offs, I believe was the term used. Could the Minister describe what is meant by the term "write-offs?" Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the vast majority of that money is remissions, so there will be some money for student loans where the person passes away or goes bankrupt while still owing some money on their loan. In those situations there are write-offs, but most of the money we're talking about here is remission.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Another area of general interest under this area, Mr. Chairman, in advanced education and careers, is the need for us to somehow provide assistance to new Canadians in the area of English as a second language instruction. Can the Minister advise does the GNWT make this kind of training available through any of our institutions or perhaps indirectly through NGOs? What are we doing to help out new Canadians who need that kind of literacy help? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our government doesn't actually spend any money on delivering that kind of program. The programs are available through Aurora College, and the federal government contracts with Aurora College for the delivery of those programs. So the programs are available, but they're paid for by the federal government.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Okay, thank you. I will ask the question whether you have any ability to know is the need being satisfied through the federal programs? Are we providing enough programs and enough access to satisfy the need? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, it hasn't been raised as an issue with us. We do talk to the federal government on a fairly regular basis. The college hasn't alerted us that there is a bigger demand than what can be satisfied through what's being delivered. So to the best of our knowledge right now, the demand must be being met.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask the Minister about the career and technical centre project in Yellowknife. I think a lot of Members here have spoken about the need for resources for training of our young people so they could take advantage of economic opportunities that are happening around us. I know that the government has transferred the land on which the centre is built, but I don't believe there has been any resources to either help with the project or in terms of any commitment to any programs that could be held there that would go toward paying for the project. Also, we are already aware of the fact that some of the major industries and companies, such as De Beers, have made some significant financial contributions towards this project. The people involved with this project are working really hard to raise money from outside of the government, and they have been quite successful to a certain extent. I think we will know more about the extent of that when the centre has the official opening come next Friday. But I know that this project is in desperate need of some assistance from the government, and I do believe this is in line with everything the Department of Education, Culture and Employment stands for. So I would like to ask the Minister as to whether or not he has given any thought to this project, and a commit from the Minister that he would look within the budget to see whether this project could qualify for any funding from his department. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I mentioned to Mr. Delorey earlier, this sort of program I think is on everybody's radar right now. It is an extremely important type of program, but, unfortunately, we haven't identified any money to add into the formula for schools. So the schools are going to have to look for opportunities to partner up. I know, for instance, the Yellowknife Catholic Schools have gotten some short-term contracts with Aurora College for the use of the facility. They did make it available, as I said earlier, to the Dogrib Community Services Board for some of their students to take advantage of over the spring break. But at this point, the schools would have to choose to reallocate funding from within the formula if they wanted to support this kind of programming. All the money that we have that we can provide the schools is going to schools, and we haven't been able to increase that funding. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Am I to understand that that's that and there's no point for these project people to come and ask for any kind of assistance from the government?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would hope that we are at some point going to be able to take a look at this important type of programming throughout the territory. But in the budget that you have before you there is no extra funding to accommodate trades training in schools.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate whether or not he has had an audience with the people involved with this project, to see what it is they're doing and what it is that they're looking for? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have had an opportunity to tour the facility. I have had an informal meeting with members of the board, so I am aware, in a general sense, of what the interest is. I do know what the programming is that they propose to offer, yes.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It seems like there is a pretty solid wall there, and I'm not sure if I could break through that at this setting. But I think I have to make a note of the fact that while what the Minister is saying makes sense in terms of the way our budgeting process works. I don't think the people out there, especially people in Yellowknife who are seeing the resource development activities happening around us and the call on the part of the government are aware of it and that they're doing everything they can to support training of our young to get ready for it. I don't think that makes sense to the people, that when a community group like this on their own initiative and a board that has been elected by the people on their initiative comes up with an idea, comes up with a facility, finds a niche and finds the need and endeavours to fill those training needs, then to succeed in raising as much as $500,000 or $600,000, and for the government to say we don't have one penny to add to that is just not something that is consistent with the message that the government is sending. So I don't have a question, but I would really urge the Minister and the government to rethink that process and pay attention and pay time to this to understand the merits of it, and find a way to give assistance to this project. I'm wondering if maybe even the oil and gas money that was announced by the federal government or economic development money, or if there could be any linkages found to help projects like this. I wonder if the Minister could undertake to look into that. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had mentioned earlier to Mr. Delorey that Yellowknife Catholic Schools had a good example that I discussed with the Chairs of other boards, for a facility that they had managed to find partnerships to develop it. I don't think anybody is denying the importance of trades training for young people in the North, particularly given our opportunities in the resource development field over the next several years. So I would dearly love to be able to say that we had some money in the budget to improve what we have for trades training.

I guess I also need to say that the budget you have before you, I've already mentioned, and I realize, Mr. Chairman, we're on the wrong page because actually what we're talking about is on page 9-17. The budget you have before you, the contributions to schools, doesn't include all the money given. I'm going to have to come back for a supp for $2.8 million on top of this just to have enough money to maintain the contributions that the schools in the Northwest Territories are getting right now. That's without adding any extra programming. So what you're seeing in this budget now is not the final dollar. We didn't have the final count for enrolment until just recently, so we couldn't demonstrate the need for the increased funds. We now have the final count for enrolment as of this year. So based on the actual enrolments, we're going to have to come back to this Legislative Assembly for a supplementary appropriation in the range of close to $3 million just to maintain what we're doing already.

So it is an important area, we need to find some way to do it, we are examining what makes the most sense in terms of programming for schools and how we should do things when it comes to funding the school districts, the divisional education councils. But as it stands right now, we haven't got any extra money to put into that kind of program.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to speak to something that has been on people's minds in my riding for many, many years, and I think it's time I have an opportunity to speak to it.

In terms of our value system, there seems to be a conflict between what we call a land-based economy versus a commerce-based economy. Unfortunately, as we, if I may use the word politely, Mr. Chairman, have been marginalized, we tend to deal with on an ongoing basis of those who are on income support. The difficulty seems to lie in the way we manage the transitional change or the stages which we go through. Unfortunately, the majority of my riding is in that boat.

Once assistance is offered, many times over and over, we need to offer some support to income support clients through a funding mechanism to put people back on the land where they will come resourceful again. I asked the Minister of RWED the other day if he would consider working with your ministry to see if you can reform some of your policies so people can become self-reliant again. It goes beyond the promoting of self-reliance. It also entails a number of interesting concepts and those are concepts such as the healing process, heading back where living off the land becomes job worthiness rather than one where you have to earn an income to support yourself. Once you learn the skills on the land, there are many different aspects to it. Certainly it’s a learning institution in itself. There are survival skills and I look at hopefully with the reform in RWED to support educational transition and how we use animals for commercial purposes, the collection of qiviuk, for example, and trying to overcome some of the political problems we do have at the community level to advocate the need for some kind of an economic reform.

So, Mr. Minister, I want to take this opportunity to talk a bit about how those productive choices can be managed through a different effort, an effort which requires the combination of on-the-land skill development as well as incorporating certain educational tools. I want to just say in my 14 years of teaching in the wilderness area, we made a lot of scientists out of young trappers. They understand the geology, the geography, the biomass, the plants, the different seasonal uses. They also became good mathematicians because they could understand the value of distance, trigonometry. Although I am not an expert in mathematics, I certainly understand when they try to factor in the different degrees of grades of a hill. So it does have an educational factor.

Just in conclusion, I would like to ask the department to consider if they would work with another department and see if we can put people back on the land developing certain teaching modules and perhaps that can be considered as part of their educational process. That is something we need to look at as an alternative other than keeping people on income support and paying huge community costs to maintain them. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we would be prepared to work with another department to accomplish that sort of thing.

I don’t think a lot of people are aware that a traditional lifestyle is a productive choice in our income support program. It is supported through the income support program right now. For instance, if somebody wants to choose that, we are quite prepared to support them by the purchase of fuel and shells to help them get back on the land and help them become self-sufficient on the land. That is already accomplished. The Member also talked about the need for training, and that is the one area that isn’t available right now. So we would be prepared to work with others to achieve that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am just going back to some points that the Minister had made during some questions on his opening remarks on this education budget. The Minister had noted that the level of the number of students that have been enrolled in high schools in the NWT has declined over the past few years. I am wondering if the Minister can elaborate a little more on that in the context of are these students…I don’t see an enrolment change per se or a drop in population, but is the Minister aware that perhaps a significant number of families are now considering sending their students who qualify for high school to southern institutions? Does the Department of Education know what that number might be? Does it fill the gap and difference between the changes in the levels of enrolment?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn’t earlier say that the numbers of students in high schools had dropped. I said the overall schools population had declined by just under one percent. It’s about .8 percent year to year. Most of the decline is in the younger ages rather than the older, and that is consistent with the aging population and it is somewhat expected. As the population ages, you tend to have fewer young children in the population as a proportion. What I did say was the high school participation is increasing. We are getting more young people, particularly more aboriginal young people, into high school and into graduation. The trends seem to be pretty good.

I know there have always been some people who have preferred to send their children south for any number of reasons, but we have no way of tracking when people might be doing that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On another point, the question of students being sent to southern institutions to be more academically challenged with their curriculum, I wonder if the Department of Education has considered the development of some type of a multilateral strategy that includes the government, industry, the federal government and any private input from individuals or families into some kind of an education fund that would assist a lot of academically challenged students from the NWT to go to institutions which will challenge them academically, intellectually, socially and mentally so that the NWT can realize that these students can go on to even higher professional development careers as doctors and lawyers and professional engineers. I wonder if the Department of Education has ever considered such a plan.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have good schools in all regions of the Northwest Territories and we’ve had people who have gone on to become lawyers, teachers, professors, doctors from all regions. So our plan is to continue to support the schools in the Northwest Territories. There is no plan to develop any process to support students to attend schools outside the Territories.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to ask the Minister if he would be supportive of an initiative that would develop some kind of an endowment fund, something like the Chair was referring to in a different department, that industry could contribute to and education would support and work to develop some kind of a revolving fund, an endowment fund, that would allow students to seek career development, higher education, in other countries. Institutions would specialize in areas of real professional development and expertise.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If the Member is referring to secondary schooling, then the answer is it would not be likely. If the Member is talking about post-secondary schooling, we currently support students to take their schooling in other jurisdictions if that is where they choose to find that it’s best to do it. There are a number of aboriginal organizations that help their members to top up from student financial assistance to ensure that they can achieve at a higher level if that will help them. That sort of process is always going to be available, but I am not sure that we would be interested in seeing it happen for high school students. We want to make sure we have the best possible system in the Northwest Territories. So if there is money available for schools, I want to see it go to improving what we can do here in the Territories and making sure, for instance, that we do have better training for high school students before we start sending our students away. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That sounds okay to me. It sounds like the Minister is willing to keep it under consideration for further discussion.

Just getting back to some of the increase in some program funding, the increase in the student financial assistance and the income support program, I am curious as to the levels of increase that these programs are going to be receiving. What percentage of those increases are actually going to be going to the students and what percentage is going to just administration of the program delivery?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Minister.