Debates of March 29, 2004 (day 10)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Wednesday, March 31, 2004, I will move the following motion: I move, seconded by the Member for Nunakput, that Ms. Therese Boullard be appointed as the Director of Human Rights for the Northwest Territories Human Rights Commission during good behaviour for a term of four years by the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories as recommended by the Legislative Assembly;

And further that the Speaker be authorized to communicate the effective date of appointment to the Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha, that Bill 5, Tlicho Community Government Act, be read for the first time.

The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I call Committee of the Whole to order. The list of items before us has just been recited. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the committee recommends that the committee continue to review Bill 1 with the conclusion of the Department of Public works and Services, Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and the Executive offices. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Does the committee agree?

Agreed.

Thank you. We will start with those departments after a brief break.

---SHORT RECESS

I call the Committee of the Whole back to order. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I move we report progress.

Thank you. The motion is in order. It’s not debatable. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will now rise and report progress.

Can I have the report of Committee of the Whole? Mrs. Groenewegen.

REPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 1, Appropriation Act, 2004-2005, and would like to report progress and, Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Do I have a seconder for that? Mr. Ramsay.

Question.

All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 19. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 19. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You have unanimous consent to go back to item 19, consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, 2004-2005, Bill 4, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 2003-2004; Committee Report 1-15(3), Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight Report on the Review of the Draft 2004-2005 Main Estimates; Committee Report 2-15(3), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the Draft 2004-2005 Main Estimates; and, Committee Report 3-15(3), Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development Report on the Review of the Draft 2004-2005 Main Estimates.

I will call Committee of the Whole back to order and ask what is the wish of the committee? Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the committee recommends that we continue with Bill 1, the review of Public Works and Services, the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs, and the Executive offices to conclusion. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Is the committee agreed?

Agreed.

Agreed. Thank you. At this time, I will ask the Minister of Public Works and Services, the Honourable Floyd Roland, if he would like to give us his opening remarks.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am pleased to present the Department of Public Works and Services main estimates for the fiscal year 2004-05.

The estimates propose a department operations and maintenance budget for 2004-2005 of $44.6 million and a capital acquisition plan of $2.9 million. This is a one percent increase over the 2003-2004 main estimates.

These resources will be used to provide critical support services to departments and communities including:

Operations and maintenance of infrastructure;

Technical support in the provision of community drinking water;

Management of capital construction projects;

Safety and inspection services;

Leasing of government offices;

Provision of records management services; and,

Monitoring and intervention in northern national telecommunications proceedings.

The department also manages an additional $118 million on behalf of its clients through a number of revolving funds, chargebacks and capital transfers. Through the use of these funds, the department provides:

Computer and data communication services for government offices throughout the territory;

Fuel services for 15 communities; and,

Renovation and construction of critical territorial and community infrastructure.

As other departments work to achieve government objectives by delivering direct services to our residents, Public Works and Services provides necessary technical and professional support to those departments. In particular, Public Works and Services Works closely with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs to support the provision of services to community governments. The department provides its technical expertise throughout the process of planning, designing, construction and operating community water systems. Similarly it assists with the technical assessment of community facilities and is frequently called upon to manage and design the construction of new facilities. The department also works with communities to identify granular requirements and develop plans for management of the available resources.

There are many examples of the kind of support Public Works and Services provides to departments as they work to achieve an appropriate balance between:

The expectations of our residents for high quality services;

The practical constraints of operating in our difficult northern environment; and,

The limitations of our current budgets.

I would like to take a moment to mention a few of these services in more detail.

Many successful building and infrastructure projects are taken for granted, but I would like to mention some of the more recent ones:

The new community office building in Trout Lake;

New water intakes in Fort Providence;

The new academic building for Aurora College in Inuvik;

Renovation of the health centre in Holman;

Expanded fuel storage facilities in Tsiigehtchic and Wha Ti;

The new water treatment system in Tsiigehtchic;

And repairs to the reservoir in Jean Marie River.

All of these are important community, regional and territorial facilities that will contribute in a positive way to achieving the government’s long-term objectives. Public Works and Services is part of the team responsible for delivering those projects.

The department also provides information systems and communication services for use by the government. More and more, the ability of the government to provide services to northern residents is dependent upon the availability of secure and reliable information and communication systems.

Another important role for this department is to be a key member of the GNWT team responsible for ensuring the quality of community drinking water. Working closely with the departments of Health and Social Services, Municipal and Community Affairs and Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development.

Public Works and Services provides technical support for the design, construction, operation and maintenance of community water systems.

Finally, I would like to mention the provision of essential fuel services. Through the petroleum products revolving fund, Public Works and Services funds the provision of heating fuel and gasoline in communities where a commercial operation does not exist. This includes providing safe tank farms in these remote locations as well as contracting with and training local fuel delivery agents to provide the services. These agents have an important function in their communities and PW & S works with them to carry out this important service.

Public Works and Services continues to strive to be responsive to its many clients and to provide a high level of support to departments and the people of the NWT. The budget that we are reviewing today will contribute to achieving this objective.

That concludes my opening remarks. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I am going to ask Mr. Ramsay now if he would provide the Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development's remarks on the review of the main estimates for Public Works and Services. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Department of Public Works designs, constructs acquires operates and maintains buildings, works and equipment and implements energy efficient projects in Government of the Northwest Territories’ buildings and works required for the Government of the Northwest Territories to deliver its programs and services, provides a system of specialist services that enhance efficiency of government departments and makes essential petroleum products available for the sale to the public where these are not provided by the private sector.

The Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development met with the Minister for the Department of Public Works and Services and his staff on February 24, 2004m to review the department’s draft main estimates for 2004-2005.

The committee observed that 10 to 15 years ago the government had a more coordinated approach to records management and that Government Services as a part of Public Works performed the records management function. Today all departments have their own filing systems and their own records management staff. The department responded that they have been working with the departments to coordinate the services but that the departments have not been given Cabinet direction to use Public Works and Services for records management.

The committee recommends that the government look at what can be done to better coordinate Records Management across departments. The committee would like to also recommend that departments looks at storing records electronically in order to reduce warehouse operation costs.

The committee inquired as to the relationship between the technology services centre and the Public Works and Services systems and communications division. The committee also asked about the long-term plan for these two related divisions.

The Minister replied that PWS deals with management and administration of the GNWT wide area network; management and administration of the Yellowknife municipal area network; computer processing of corporate and departmental business systems; management and administration of the GNWT e-mail systems; operation and support of the GNWT Web site; provision of GNWT Internet access and administration.

The TSC deals with desktop computers, laptops and printers and local area network support, server operation for various departmental business systems.

The committee understands that planning for the integration of systems and communications and TSC with the Department of Public Works and Services has already started. Implementation will take place over the coming year and the change will be reflected in the 2005-2008 business plan.

The committee would like to encourage the government to proceed with its plans to merge the TSC and systems and communications as soon as possible.

The committee questioned the department at length on the way it sets out compensation and benefits budgets in the main estimates. For instance, under the systems and communications activity, only the director’s compensation and benefits are shown.

The compensation and benefits budget for the other staff is accounted for on the systems and communication chargeback page. The rationale provided by the department was that salaries of staff other than the director are charged back to the clients.

Similarly, the petroleum products activity does not include any compensation and benefits budget at all. Staff costs are shown instead under the revolving fund. The department explained that this is because there are no appropriated funds for the petroleum products activity.

Finally, some benefits for staff across the department are listed under the directorate rather than under the activities with which the staff are associated.

The committee is concerned that separating compensation and benefit costs from the activities they are associated with makes it very difficult to know the full budget for those activities.

The committee recommends that, beginning with the 2005-2008 draft business plans, the department adopt a consistent practice for showing compensation and benefits costs that makes it clear which activities those costs are associated with.

The petroleum products division purchases, transports and stores the annual requirements for petroleum products in communities not served by the private sector. There has been discussion in past years about whether PWS would continue to provide these services or whether this function would be privatized. The committee noted significant new tank farm projects in the infrastructure acquisition plan, and asked the Minister to confirm whether there is a new direction to abandon privatization. The Minister confirmed that there is direction from Cabinet not to proceed with any further privatization initiatives. The Minister also assured the committee that the communities where tank farms are being replaced are not likely to be privatized because it is unlikely they could support viable commercial operations.

The committee requested an explanation from the department for the removal of the Fort Simpson operations manager position. The department advised that the position has been moved to Yellowknife to train a person from Fort Simpson to eventually assume the role of operations manager in that community. The department reassured the committee that the position would remain in Fort Simpson. The committee recommends that the department prepare a timeline for the training and transfer of this position back to Fort Simpson and recommends that all positions associated with the petroleum products division be relocated from Yellowknife to its headquarters in Fort Simpson.

The committee questioned the Minister on the decision to go from retrofits, upgrades and addressing code deficiencies to replacing or spending upwards of $4 million to $5 million on tank farms. The Minister replied that often conditions deteriorate between the time of estimates and evaluation. Once a proper evaluation is performed and repairs have to be made then code requirements and regulations play a role and replacements may be necessary. Where possible, the department advised it prefers to limit projects to upgrades.

The committee asked the department to confirm if all the tank farms meet safety and environmental conditions and also if all of the decommissioned sites have been cleaned up. The department replied that environmental site assessments and audits have been performed on every site including the old ones. The liabilities are known and PWS has a plan with RWED to address all of these areas in the long term.

That concludes the Governance and Economic Development report on the Department of Public Works and Services. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. I would like to ask the Minister if he would like to bring in witnesses.

I would, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Is the committee agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you. Then I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms if she would bring Mr. Roland's officials in to the table.

Thank you. Mr. Roland, for the record, would you please introduce your officials.

Thank you, Madam Chair. To my right is the deputy minister, Bruce Rattray, and to my left is the director of petroleum product services, Mr. Mike Aumond.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have some questions with respect to the money that the government spends on utility bills, and as Members might have made a note of me asking questions to every department and every division, and often under the other expenses section the big items that I noticed were either contract services or utilities. Some divisions like I think Education or any sections where they have buildings, whether it be facilities or government offices, there are huge utility bills that can work up to $300,000 or $400,000 or anywhere in there. I want to know if DPW has any involvement in either paying of the bills or setting up the bills, budgeting the bills or anything like that. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. In the area of costs by other departments, the work is done by those departments. At one time Public Works and Services used to be more involved in the delivery and costs for those departments, but as the result of user pay/ user say, departments have taken on a lot of those initiatives and account for them in their own budgets. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know the Minister is before us to review the DPW budget, but he does wear other hats. Is it safe to say then that because of the way the budget is budgeted and spent, and the fact that utilities are dispensed as expenses under each division, is it safe to say that we don't really have a good clear picture on how much the GNWT spends on utility bills and as a customer? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The government, through its other work as Cabinet as a whole, can direct and gather that information. Each department would have information on its costs. There have been exercises done as well in the past on areas of potential savings and costs. So there has been work done in that area, and that information could be pulled together again to give the most current state in expenditures. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would be interested in getting that information from the Minister perhaps department by department. If there is a huge expenditure, something above, I don't know what huge is, I think the range is anywhere from $5,000 to $800,000. I would appreciate getting that sort of information. My final question is whether or not government, as a client in all its variation of departments, do they qualify for a subsidy on those utility bills? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.