Debates of March 29, 2004 (day 10)

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just notice a sentence here on page 2 of 5 just ahead of Mr. Pokiak’s concern. It mentions the management and construction of new facilities, management of the design. Is that for communities in particular, or is that a chargeback function that we provide for smaller communities? How does that work? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The role Public Works and Services gets involved in is at the department level. When a client department, if it is Health and Social Services or Education, Culture and Employment become involved, we would work with them and provide the technical expertise in project management and design, and work with them to see what the requirements are in helping to establish the estimates that would be used and placed in the main estimates document as well. So there are a number of areas that we are involved with them, but it is mainly with departments and then as a contract is laid out and issued we are involved in the project management end in communities, unless there is an agreement for full authority with the communities then they would take over that area. We, again, mainly work with departments in the delivery of our capital projects. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to dive a little further into this question, is there a chargeback function; for example, if Aurora College wants a new facility in whatever community, it doesn’t really matter, but if they want a new facility is there a chargeback function, for example, the design, some of the planning, maybe even the management is pointed out earlier? If there is a chargeback function, how does it work? Do we charge it as a market rate function, et cetera? On the last part, is there any obligation of the departments to use Public Works in that regard, in regard to chargeback for services or can they just pick whom they wish? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The only two areas we would have a chargeback are accounted for in our budget, and that would be the petroleum products revolving fund as well as the systems and communications. The project management end, we don’t charge departments for that service. That is a cost that the department eats. So we don’t have a setup or an arrangement of that nature. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I can appreciate the generosity of Public Works not having a chargeback function, but I find it strange that other departments don’t have to account for that in any way. Is there any reason why we don’t have a chargeback function, citing my example earlier if Aurora College wanted a new facility or project done? Is the Minister able to enlighten us either if he happens to be wearing his FMBS cap at this moment along with his Public Works cap? I am searching for a little information on why we don’t do that, if the Minister can enlighten me on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. At one time we were much more involved in a lot of the areas with other departments. Again, as stated, user pay/user saves. There were a lot of areas that were returned to departments and they could choose how to do it. This is one area where there is a fair bit of technical expertise developed, and it was felt that it would remain in house in one department instead of splitting it up, and departments not having the ability and the resources to go to sort of a multi-faceted team that has experience in a number of different kinds of facilities. So the technical expertise was kept in one department and that is the way we have continued to operate on that end. If we looked at going down the other road, the potential is that there could be some higher costs in those areas, as we have seen with some of the other initiatives where each department goes to try to hire its own technical expertise or develop its own systems as well in that area.

I guess one of the other areas I should point out is as the department is involved in helping this process along, there are charges that departments would pay, but that is when the actual contracts are for actual design of a facility. There are those dollars that go to the architects that we would contract with and they would supply actual final drawings. Then contractors that would build a facility could take the drawings and do estimates on providing the level of work it would take, if it be electrical people and plumbers, concrete people or steel people, that would all come from those drawings. So they would end up paying and part of the project would pay for some of those costs. But Public Works and Services is in the front end of planning and preparation, getting the rough estimates, I believe it is close to a class C estimate, and then it goes on from there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will further vouch for the simplicity rather than paying from one treasury into another treasury door. So I can recognize the simplicity of not charging back. The last area that I want to probe and get a little more clarification, I had mentioned earlier and it probably got lost in my questions, which is the role and the obligation of other departments. Is there an obligation, for example, that any other department must consult with the Department of Public Works, recognizing the expertise and the role that the Department of Public Works plays? Is there any role, function, mandate, policy that basically says check box A, must go to Department of Public Works, and if busy then we proceed at our own choice? Is there a policy, because if we have amalgamated all of this technical expertise, which I could probably speak for personally, but is there a role, policy, obligation, anything in that nature thereof? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess it depends on what level you want to go down to because you get down to the level of contract regulations where there is some direction for the involvement of Public Works and Services, but departments, through the changes in systems they have had the opportunity and can go to their own sources if they want to. For projects themselves in the capital area they’ve been consistent in coming back to us, because, again, we have that expertise level within the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

No further questions at this time.

Thank you. Any further general comments? If not, we will proceed with the detail and the estimates. If I could have you please turn to page 5-9 in your main estimates books please. Operations expense, total operations expense, $44.639 million. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a breakdown for other expenses.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get detail as to what page we are working from? Is it from the actual full department, or is it from the directorate that you are looking for that detail? Thank you.

Oh, good point, Mr. Roland. We should be on page 5-9. I called page 5-7, which was wrong, so we are going to stand down that page 5-7, and go to page 5-9, directorate, operations expense, total operations expense, $7.763 million. Now, Mr. Menicoche, would you like to question the other expenses under that amount?

Madam Chair, yes.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The other expenses for the directorate, travel and transportation, $142,000; materials and supplies, $201,000; purchased services, $217,000; contract services, $256,000; fees and payments, $36,000; other expenses, $1.034 million; computer hardware and software, $37,000; totalling $1.923 million. I should note that the other expenses category is for the systems communications and TSC chargeback agreements. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Operations expense, total operations expense, $7.763 million.

Agreed.

Agreed. Thank you. Asset management, operations expense, total operations expense, $35.316 million.

Agreed.

Agreed. Thank you. Asset management, grants and contributions, total grants and contributions, $572,000.

Agreed.

Agreed. Thank you. Systems and communications, total operations expense, $799,000. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. If I could, could I get a breakdown from the Minister on the other expenses under systems and communications?

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Systems and communications, other expenses, $258,000; travel and transportation, $9,000; materials and supplies, $2,000; purchased services, $183,000; contract services, $63,000; fees and payments, $1,000; for a total of $258,000. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Under the $183,000 for purchased services, could I get some detail on that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It would include items such as the phone bills and the telephone system rentals. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

That is just for the systems and communications shop, $183,000 for phone bills? Is that correct? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It actually breaks down from that into the different regions. For example, headquarters is $2,000, Fort Smith is $70,000, Fort Simpson is $31,000, Hay River is $20,000, and Inuvik is $60,000. So it breaks down to those regions as well within systems and communications. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. How many employees are in the various regions? For instance in Fort Smith where there are telephone bills of $70,000, is that for the whole of Public Works and Services in that region?

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will give an opportunity for Mr. Rattray to get on record here and he can give you some detail.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Rattray.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This includes the rental for some equipment, it also includes our portion of Centrex charges, and then it is all the regular lines that we have for the department including long-distance charges.

Thank you, Mr. Rattray. Mr. Ramsay.