Debates of March 29, 2004 (day 10)

Agreed. Thank you. Does the committee agree that the consideration of the Department of Public Works and Services main estimates is concluded?

Agreed.

Agreed. Thank you. I’d like to thank Minister Roland and his officials, Mr. Rattray and Mr. Aumond, for their help in this department today. Thank you.

The next department we’ll move on to now is the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and I would like to ask Mr. Handley if he has opening remarks for this department.

Madam Chair, I’m pleased to present the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs’ 2004-2005 main estimates for the committee’s consideration. The ministry proposes the 2004-2005 main estimates as follows: compensation and benefits, $4.859 million; grants and contributions, $1.95 million; other expenses, $1.634 million; and amortization expenses, $20,000; for a total operational budget of $8.463 million.

This is a $48,000 or 0.6 percent net decrease from the 2003-2004 main estimates. This net decrease is due to the following factors: $128,000 in collective bargaining increases; and $176,000 in budget reduction, mainly in the areas of travel and contract services. The ministry does not collect any revenue and does not require capital funding.

Successful conclusion of lands, resources, self-government, devolution and resource revenue sharing agreements will change the system of government in the Northwest Territories. Programs and services that will be transferred are currently being provided by our government. Our investment in these negotiations is paying dividends.

A Tlicho final agreement was signed on August 25, 2003. A Gwich’in and Inuvialuit self-government agreement-in-principle was signed on April 16, 2003. A Deline self-government agreement-in-principle was signed on August 25, 2003. Self-government negotiations with the community of Tulita were initialled in September 2003. A devolution framework agreement initialled on June 26, 2003 was signed by the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Aboriginal Summit in January and on March 18th signed by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the Honourable Andrew Mitchell.

Lands, resources and self-government negotiations are continuing with the Deh Cho First Nations and Akaitcho First Nations. Negotiations of a lands and resources agreement-in-principle are also continuing with the Northwest Territories Metis Nation.

The ministry is also involved with several ongoing implementation activities. The ministry, Government of Canada and the Gwich’in Tribal Council successfully negotiated a new 10-year Gwich’in implementation plan. The ministry continues to work with Canada and the Sahtu Secretariat towards finalizing a new Sahtu implementation plan.

Working through the Gwich’in and Sahtu implementation committees, the ministry is working with the other parties to develop a framework for evaluating the effectiveness of government economic development programs as they relate to the economic measures objectives in the Gwich’in and Sahtu land claims agreements. The ministry is also working with Canada and the Inuvialuit to determine next steps related to the Inuvialuit economic measures public review.

The ministry and DIAND officials are developing a comprehensive list of outstanding actions required to implement the Salt River First Nations agreement. Government officials expect to meet with chief and council as soon as the list is completed.

The Ministry has 42 positions. In addition, the Ministry receives $308,000 from the Government of Canada to fund three positions to coordinate and manage GNWT implementation activities flowing from the Inuvialuit, Gwich’in and Sahtu land claims agreements.

This concludes my opening remarks. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. At this time I will as the committee responsible for reviewing the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs main estimates to report. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the committee met with the Minister on February 17, 2004 to review the draft 2004-2005 main estimates for the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs. The ministry is proposing a $48,000 decrease in operations and expenses from the 2003-2004 main estimate. The committee is concerned about the slow implementation of land claims agreements and hopes to see considerable progress during the term of the 15th Assembly. Despite the considerable number of years since the signing of the agreement with the Inuvialuit, Gwich’in and Sahtu people, there are still numerous issues that need to be addressed so that critical parts of the agreements can have practical effect. The long-standing need for amendments to the Wildlife Act is only one example.

Earlier this year, the Auditor General of Canada made public her report to the House of Commons on matters of special importance for 2003. Chapter eight of the report included a number of observations and recommendations about Indian and Northern Affairs Canada’s approach to land claims implementation which was found to leave considerable room for improvement.

While the report is directed at the federal government some of its observations and findings could apply equally to the Government of the Northwest Territories. The committee strongly believes the GNWT must make its position on these findings and on its own land claim implementation responsibilities clear to northerners by preparing a formal response to the Auditor General’s report.

The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight recommends that within 60 days the government prepare and make public a formal response to the Auditor General’s observations and findings on land claims implementation within 60 days.

In reviewing the draft main estimates, Members noted that the budget for the ministry is not broken down between separate functions such as the directorate, internal administration, devolution and resource revenue sharing negotiations, and land claims and self-government negotiations. In the future, committee would like to see the Aboriginal Affairs budget defined in more detail.

The Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight recommends that the Aboriginal Affairs budget be separated into multiple activities beginning with the 2005-2008 draft business plans.

Members noted that the mandate of the ministry as set out under GNWT policy 11.50 does not specifically make reference to negotiation of devolution and resource revenue sharing agreements and are concerned that it does not adequately reflect the works the ministry does on behalf of all northerners. Committee would like to see the mandate of the Ministry updated and restated more accurately.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes committee’s report and we are ready to proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I’d like to ask the Minister if he would wish to bring in his witnesses.

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Does committee agree that we’ll allow the Minister to bring in his witnesses?

Agreed.

Agreed. Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please proceed to bring in the witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Mr. Minister, would you like to introduce your witnesses?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me are Mark Warren, assistant deputy minister of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs; and, Steve Iveson, executive director for negotiations. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier, and welcome, gentlemen. General comments from Members. Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. Chairman, is Mr. Handley trying to get us into detail already? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I see the Minister starts his presentation breaking out some of the expenses. Could the Minister break out other expenses he has pegged at $1.634 million? If he could start by breaking that out to give us a little better understanding.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The other expenses are travel and transportation: for negotiations travel, $555,000; and other Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs related travel, $213,000. That’s for going to ministerial meetings, annual assemblies, federal/provincial/territorial intergovernmental processes and so on. Secondary are materials and supplies, $80,000. This is paper for the photocopies and printers and so on. Purchased services, $109,000. Communications are things like bills for phones, faxes, courier, freight and so on. Contract services, $485,000. These are major expenses and they include anticipated services of costing and modeling of self-government devolution related modeling that has to be done, strategic advice with aboriginal issues and so on. Fees and payments, $12,000, includes professional fees, registration, event fees, Quicklaw subscription. Other expenses, $80,000, these are chargebacks related to MAA’s use of communications and contract registry chargeback. Computer related costs, $100,000, this is charge back from TSC for evergreening, as well as administration and maintenance of computer-related equipment and software. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could elaborate a little further, I notice that the travel budget is--if I heard him correctly--he said $555,000. He also said we had a $213,000 travel budget for what I understood as the ministry’s office, maybe specifically to the ministry. If he could elaborate on both of those. What’s the number of employees that travel? That’s a lot of travel. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, on the travel there are negotiations travel, first, at $555,000. Any of the staff who are involved in negotiations, whether it’s devolution or land resource agreements, self-government agreements, would be travelling with the exception of secretaries. There are 42 employees in the ministry. Three are secretaries, so essentially 39 people at some point probably travel.

The other category I had was the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs related travel at $213,000. This is for department people and the Minister for participation at ministerial meetings, annual assemblies, federal/provincial/territorial intergovernmental processes that we take part in, information workshops with regard to negotiations, and support to regional management committees. Mr. Chairman, there are quite a number of people who are travelling in both those categories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m not sure how to proceed on the next one because I’m a little confused. Do we send the whole office on every trip? When it comes to negotiations, is anyone there? Thirty-nine people travel. I guess, well, it’s a silly question, but I need an answer to that one, as well as the fact does this department sponsor travel of other departments? Are we taking everybody we can find on these trips? Let’s get some feedback from the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, no, everyone doesn’t travel as a team to every negotiation. We have a number of negotiations such as self-government, land and resources devolution, going on at any one time. People are assigned to particular teams. It would only be those people who are involved from the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs in that particular set of negotiations or meeting who would travel to that one.

Mr. Chairman, in addition to our own staff from MAA travelling, we do at times pay for the cost of lawyers from Justice to travel for specific purposes that are under discussion or negotiation. We do not pay for other departments to travel. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the very good answers from the Minister. What does a team consist of? Can you break it down and give me an idea? Are we sending 15 negotiators as one team? Are we sending a suitcase full of lawyers? What does a team consist of? How many people are we talking about and what kind of expertise are we sending, such as four negotiators and four lawyers, et cetera? If the Minister could oblige us all, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, as you can recognize, it depends on the negotiations happening. We would typically have a chief negotiator, an assistant negotiator and legal counsel travelling together to a negotiation meeting. Depending on what is under discussion, you could have a lands negotiator there or you might have an implementation negotiator there, but that would depend on the agenda. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so I didn’t forget to ask, I would also like the comparison of travel dollars for next year as well. Just before I leave this point, I wouldn’t want to forget, how many chief negotiators do we send? How many assistant negotiators would we send typically and how many legal counsel, et cetera, working through the system? You gave me five titles and I’m curious, on an average basis would we send one for each position or two or three, on an average? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, certainly no more than one chief negotiator, no more than one assistant negotiator, and sometimes those two positions are combined and just one of those two will travel. Typically not more than one legal counsel from Justice. The other two I had mentioned, lands negotiator and implementation negotiator, there might be one of them travelling. As I said, not typically, but on occasion depending on the topic and items being discussed.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually, this is quite an unusual experience. Normally my time flies by. This is nice; I have lots of time here. Can the Minister supply me with those numbers I was requesting about last year’s travel costs? Can I have the ministry breakout as well as the negotiators breakout? How often, before I release the mike, do these negotiating teams travel at, if I may boldly say, $768,000 worth of travel? If the Minister could explain that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, as the Member can appreciate, when we did up our briefing books and totals, we don’t have the full year for 2003-2004. Up to the end of February 2004 there was $298,835.12 spent on travel for negotiations. For other travel -- and this is all the other categories I had mentioned before -- up to the end of February there was $114,502.06 spent for a total up to February for this 2003-2004 year of $413,337.18. Mr. Chairman, if we go back to the 2002-2003 year, the number was $705,212.26. If you want to compare a full year with a full year. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins, you can slide in one more question.

Excellent. I’m just finding that substantial. Unless we had a lot of travel this month, that was a lot of travel, $413,000 this year alone up to the end of February 2004, if I understood it. Did he have an expectation of spending another approximately $200,000 worth of travel? Can the Minister show me or demonstrate how we had a 25 percent reduction in travel in this department? My apologies, I did not see it. As well, can you reiterate your three-year travel average?

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the three-year average for travel was $700,000. This year our travel is down because the Tlicho negotiations are completed. Then we have also, in the department over the past couple of years, taken some dramatic efforts to reduce the cost of travel by buying excursion tickets and reducing the number of people travelling and so on. We anticipate continuing to exercise that kind of restraint in the future as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I will now ask if there are any other general comments on Aboriginal Affairs. Mr. Hawkins.

Excellent. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. With a department that has I think six pages, you have to at least ask a few questions. I don’t think I heard the reduction of 25 percent there. Maybe if the Minister could gratefully reiterate that. I heard there’s a plan that we’re going to be a little smarter on how we purchase the tickets, but I didn’t quite hear the cutback from last year’s travel budget and how we’ve got 25 percent in this year’s travel budget. If the Minister could help me on that number. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we have cut $176,000 out of our travel budget. I would have to work out what the total amount was that we cut that from. Mr. Chairman, the total travel expenses for the last year that we used was about $900,000. Of that, we cut $176,000 to arrive at the number we’re using for this year. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister supply us with a written copy of the travel budget for the last three years, as well as a breakout as he’s indicated earlier to give us an idea of teams that travel in that regard? I’m not in a position of authority to question the Minister on the size of teams, but it has been articulated loudly in the communities that more than one lawyer travels, et cetera. The teams are quite large. There’s a significant entourage that travels with this group. I’m concerned on the budget growing and we’re not scrutinizing at least the travel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the travel budgets, this is the budget, not the actual travel. Sorry, I have the actual travel, not the budget. This is the actual travel for 2001, $739,764.04; 2001-2002, $772,333.49; 2002-2003, $705,212.26; and for the 2003-2004, in which we’ve exercised a fair bit of restraint, came to $413,337.18. Mr. Chairman, if we go to the budget, last year we had a budget of $934,000 for 2003-2004. As I mentioned earlier, we’ve exercised a lot of restraint and I’ve cut that down so we’re not going to spend the $934,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I think I understood this particularly puzzling question, I think the Minister took the average off the estimated and didn't take the number off the actual which is kind of strange, because the estimated, if I understood him correctly -- and please feel free to straighten me out -- I think I heard him say that the estimated was around $900,000 but the actual was $705,000. So why are we using an estimated number when I think I see three years of approximately $700,000? We have $739,000 for one year, $772,000 for the next, and $705,000 for the third. So why are we using a $900,000 average to get our travel budget when we didn't need that much, and then the following year to work out, which was last year we're just finishing, as of the end of February is $413,000.

So I really see some statistical oddities with the travel budget on this one, and I find it quite strange. Now we end up with a travel budget of I think I got $768,000. So I'm just trying to find some consistency on where the reduction is on this one. If the Minister could maybe supply us, as I was requesting earlier, a copy of that travel budget information, the one that refers to everything you read off to all the regular Members, just to help demonstrate some of this consistency of the travel budgets. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.