Debates of March 29, 2004 (day 10)

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, in making the 25 percent reductions, in all government departments we worked from our budgets. We didn't go to actual travel. We worked from what was budgeted for travel. So that was no different when we came to the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs.

Last year, in 2003-04, the ministry budgeted $934,000 for travel. The reason for the increase from the roughly $700,000 per year was because of the anticipated travel on the devolution file and on the Tulita self-government negotiations. So, Mr. Chairman, we worked from budget to budget, not actuals, and we haven't done that in any department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister supply us with a hard copy of those budget figures?

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we can do that. I'm assuming you want it broken down by table. I can do that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will actually release the mike at this moment. I see other Members would like to speak, and I'll just be in the queue after them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just with respect to Aboriginal Affairs, I did note that there were some functions with regard to Aboriginal Affairs and many of the departments. I'm just wondering if the Minister was looking at that and somehow got some plan to kind of consolidate Aboriginal Affairs maybe under this very same department.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, if I understand the question correctly, other departments also have expenses related to negotiations and self-government talks and so on, RWED being one of the main ones. We don't have any plan to bring that into Aboriginal Affairs, but would rather leave that with each department to determine when they have to send people, how many people they would send for issues that directly affect their department. So the intention, for example, with RWED would be to leave those expenses in the department that is responsible for forestry or wildlife or whatever the issues are that they may be sending people to negotiations for. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just wondering if it will be better served if we, as a government, kind of handle Aboriginal Affairs under one department and interact with the other departments. One of my biggest concerns, of course, is reducing the O and M of having Aboriginal Affairs served in RWED as well as in MACA. I was just wondering, without getting it too costly, about having a sit down just so we could look at how all these functions could be best served.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I'm assuming Mr. Menicoche is referring to negotiations and not to the delivery of the programs as such. It's certainly one that I'd like to consider and look at as we prepare the next business plan. It may be possible and may be useful, Mr. Chairman, if we were to give a total of how much was spent by government on any particular set of negotiations or table. If that's where Mr. Menicoche is leading, then I would certainly be willing to take a look at it as we prepare our next year's business plans.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that it's probably better, in my view, to leave the money in the departments, because then they have more ownership over it. If it comes over to Aboriginal Affairs, they lose touch with it and begin to wonder whether their interests are being looked after. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister anticipated my next question, which basically was if they felt it served the GNWT to consolidate some of the activities in other departments. I was wondering if these other departments would feel sort of left out, I guess, if they did give up some of their direct input with Aboriginal Affairs in the negotiations. I was just wondering if there is interaction between the departments and sharing of information, or have there been any instances where they were tripping over each other.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, it is very important for Aboriginal Affairs to keep in touch closely with all the departments who have an interest in anything that is being negotiated. There are monthly negotiation reports that go out to each department. I think this is an item that's on the agenda regularly with deputy ministers. There is also a caucus or a meeting before each set of negotiations happens, so we do view it as important to maintain that contact with the program departments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Just switching gears with respect to activities around the Nahendeh riding, not so much to…(inaudible)…negotiations, but with the actual Deninu Kue, is it under the Minister's portfolio with regard to transboundary negotiations that are happening between Fort Liard, BC government and the Yukon?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, that is certainly within the mandate of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and myself as Minister responsible. While there have been discussions and I have met with the Premier of the Yukon on it and we've had meetings with the legal counsellors of the Acho Dene, as well, there hasn't been a significant amount of money spent in that area yet, but there could be in the future. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to that specific area, it's something that Fort Liard is interested in. They were quite pleased with the results of the meetings and negotiations that happened in the fall, and they wish to keep the momentum in that area. That is just to advise the Minister with that regard. Thank you. That's all the comments I have, too, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could just pick up a little further again on this travel question. When the Minister provides us with that spreadsheet on travel, if he could break out the size of average entourages that travel, give us an example of how much the cost of that is. What I mean by that is how many days they travel and typically how many people travel together. Can the Minister supply that information?

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, in the monthly reports that are provided, we do indicate the number of people who are travelling with each round of negotiations. We could, but it would be a fair bit of work, break out the number of days and the amount of travel for each Member. That would be a lot of work, but if Members really want that I will do it. It will take a lot of people time to dig that all up. Typically the group of people you would have would be no more than three. Usually we have the smallest delegation at any of these negotiations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will pause on that question for now. The Minister indicated quite often we bring lawyers to these things. Does the Department of Justice pick up that travel cost? Why does the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs pick up that cost if it’s the ministry’s cost? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, a decision was made a couple of years ago to hire two additional lawyers in Justice to deal with the negotiations. We have been picking up the travel cost for the services that are provided. Mr. Chairman, I believe this is fairly common for Justice to bill back to the departments their legal costs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just find it an administrative anomaly. It could just be me, though. That’s fine.

Just expanding a little further on the travel issue, which I will leave as a comment, I find it an exceptionally large travel budget for such a small department. It just seems perplexing at this stage why we have more than $750,000 in the travel money there. It just seems insane. I am still having a difficult time seeing the reduction. I have to admit when the Minister had indicated earlier that we took a three-year travel average of $700,000 and I still find growth in that, maybe it’s just my eyes. Maybe I am not the only one. I will wait until I see that spreadsheet before I proceed. If the Minister is still committed to finding the breakout of the spreadsheet, we can deal with it later. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, you have to recognize that the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs is a little different than a typical department in the government. We don’t manage or administer programs in the same way. The business in the ministry is negotiations. So almost all of our people in the department, with the exception of secretaries and a couple of admin people, are negotiators. They have to travel as part of their job in negotiating sessions. They are doing that on a regular basis. It’s not a ministry that you could compare easily to another department that manages the program. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

My time is up, so I will release it for now in case someone wants the microphone.

Okay. We don’t have anybody else on the list, so we will now go to detail.

Agreed.

We will go page 2-67, Aboriginal Affairs, operations expense, total operations expense, $8.463 million. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. I understand the breakdown of other expenses have been stated already. A large part of that is on travel. Could I ask for information on what the remaining portion of that $1.6 million is?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we’ve already gone through the detail. If Ms. Lee wants, I can just give Ms. Lee the page rather than reading into Hansard a second time.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Maybe I should just ask questions. How much of it was for contract services under other expenses?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned earlier, $485,000 is for contract services. Again, as I mentioned, this is for costing, modelling of self-government/devolution-related issues; strategic advice with regard to aboriginal issues; and so on. There are a number of contractual obligations or requirements that we have. Thank you.