Debates of March 31, 2004 (day 12)

Minister responsible for seniors, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought that was for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation and I didn’t follow the question. I apologize and ask the Member if he could restate the question.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I would be glad to oblige that request. I am going to ask again to the Minister responsible for seniors if he is willing to communicate to the Seniors’ Society to try to alleviate some of the fears that the seniors’ households would be now assessed rent based on the statement in the returns to oral questions? Thank you.

Minister responsible for Seniors, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 124-15(3): Rent Assessment Of Seniors In Social Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as the Minister responsible for Seniors, I have had discussions with the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation and I will continue to do that to make sure that whatever actions we take as a government are done in a measured and coordinated way, and that there is no undue concern caused to any quarter. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, further to my statement today, my question goes to the Minister of RWED. Mr. Speaker, I strongly believe that this could have been done much better, that we could be providing the necessary housing for the professionals in the community, but if it was done the right way and if there was plenty of planning going on we could have involved the local businesses. Instead we are in a situation where we have a three-month deadline for the barge in June, and we have to find the cheapest way possible. So, Mr. Speaker, in an ideal world I expect these seven Cabinet Ministers to come to the table, they have an issue to discuss, something like waiving the BIP or switching from stick built to mobile homes, I expect that those seven Ministers bring their personal expertise depending on their backgrounds, and then their government expertise. I am not hearing that from the Minister of RWED. I want to know what he is prepared to bring to the table tomorrow so that it is not just a rerun of the same exercise, but that they would really do a comprehensive cost and benefit analysis about sending these works out. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Bell.

Return To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I would like to thank the Member for her continued support of northern business. I think that’s very important, and I think it is important for the entire government and this legislature to make sure that that is a priority.

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The Member does know that the genesis for this program was in the last Assembly. Much of this work and much of the program was quite far down the pipe. So the decision to engage in stick built versus mobile homes was not the nature of our discussions. Our discussion surrounded how to move forward since this decision had been made on rolling out the program and moving to the tender phase of this project.

I will acknowledge, we don’t have a comprehensive picture of how much, and the value of the BIP. We don’t know what it costs us, we presume that there is a premium surrounding the BIP and related to the BIP when it is applied to projects, but we don’t know what that is. I have proposed that April 1st this year, tomorrow, we start to track this cost through our new contracts registry, we track if for a year. At the end of a year we can have an informed discussion about this premium, we will be able to document it. I think at that point we will be in a much better position to do the type of cost benefit analysis that the Member is asking for. I think the Member has a very valid concern in asking for this information. I would love to be able to provide it. I have to tell her, Mr. Speaker, that I can’t do so for a year. Thank you.

Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would much prefer action from the Ministers rather than gratitude. There is something strange that happens in this House. When the Cabinet Ministers get elected they are inflicted instantly with a case of amnesia.

---Laughter

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Bell doesn’t have to do a year of study. He knows all of the issues inside out, upside down pertaining to this. He talked about this. And you know what? He doesn’t need a year of registry study, he could just go out there and talk to the people. I know he got a call this morning, I got a call from a business in town who have been providing mobile homes and he tells me I cannot compete with factory costs. I buy lumber from here, I hire electricians from here, I hire plumbers here. I want to ask the Minister, what is the value of that? Thank you.

Minister of RWED, Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We do appreciate that it costs more to locate business in the North, the overhead is more expensive, it costs more to use northern plumbers, to use northern electricians if you are in the construction business. We do appreciate it, we do think it is very important. As I have said before, Mr. Speaker, the difficult challenge put to Cabinet was to deliver the most cost-effective housing in small communities who desperately need it, and for that, in weighing the balance we chose that at this point and in this instance that was the utmost priority and that is why we chose to waive the BIP. Thank you.

Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have been provided with a package of information that we understand was used by Cabinet. There is a figure of how much it costs to buy a mobile home somewhere, something like $65,000, and they put five percent premium, 10 percent premium, 15 percent premium. I really was under the impression that Cabinet operates with better information than this. Mr. Speaker, the government has already engaged in the exemption of BIP on two major projects, and I cannot believe that they do this without taking into consideration the cost of it. Mr. Speaker, the cost savings might be about $10,000 per mobile home, and it is still possible to deliver these mobile units, but buy local. Would the Minister bring that issue to the table? Thank you.

Minister of RWED, Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, certainly, and I know the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation presented us with some information. We have acknowledged that it was done on the best-case or worst-case scenario basis. We can’t know what the true cost would have been because we don’t know what the outcome of the tender would be. But I will certainly bring forward the points that the Member has made here today to our discussion at Cabinet. Thank you.

Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister bring to the table, as Minister responsible for the policy as well as maximizing economic benefits for the money that government spends, information that would counterbalance the apparent saving that we are going to get from buying from a factory in Edmonton, such as the taxes we are going to get, the consumer spending, the contributions that the businesses make, the transfer payments we get from Ottawa? Would the Minister get his people to crunch numbers and do a real cost benefit analysis rather than going for the cheapest? Thank you.

Minister of RWED, Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 125-15(3): Cost Benefit Analysis Of The BIP

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We will certainly provide and have provided on an aggregate basis GDP in the Northwest Territories, and we can give an estimate of the value of the economy in the Northwest Territories. What becomes very difficult is to determine the incremental loss if one contract goes south as opposed to north. It is very difficult to then make the determination about what kind of a ripple effect that has. When people leave the Northwest Territories, what is the loss of tax? All of these types of things end up being done in the hypothetical. I think we could certainly put together information as far as the value of the economy in the North for our discussion tomorrow. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will pick up where my colleague from Range Lake left off. I learned my lesson yesterday, Mr. Speaker, in talking about documents that are provided from Cabinet to the regular Members, so I will stay clear of some of those numbers that were contained in those documents. The first question I would have for the Minister, and in fact for all of Cabinet really, is didn’t they learn a lesson with the new Yellowknife Correctional Centre, and do they suffer from a case of amnesia? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Just to remind the Member, you have to be specific on who the question is for; you can’t direct it to the whole Cabinet. Could you name the Minister?

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod.

Return To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Mr. Speaker, I was not involved as a Minister in that initiative to waive the BIP for the correctional centre. In fact, this is the first request by the Housing Corporation to waive the BIP. So we had not done an analysis on what the results were with the correctional centre. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know that on Friday the tender closes; the one that is out there. For regular Members, this is our last opportunity in public to question the fellows on the other side of this House, and I almost feel like it is not enough time. We need to have some more debate on this, and I don’t believe the regular Members have been supplied the information that would allow us to believe that hiding under the assumption that it is for nurses, it is for teachers and things like that doesn’t preclude, Mr. Speaker, the fact that the government didn’t do its homework on this, and the benefits are not staying in the North. I would like to ask another direct question to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. Can he cancel this tender, Mr. Speaker, and put the BIP back in it where it belongs so that the businesses here in the Northwest Territories, the manufacturing industry here in the Northwest Territories, have at least a fighting chance? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered this question a few days ago. There is opportunity, yes, to cancel. At what cost, I am not sure at this point. The request was proposed to me yesterday to look at extending the timelines by two weeks. We are looking at that, we have some legal people who have given us an opinion, whether we are in a position to do that at this point, do we have adequate time to give notice, we are not sure. We are checking also with the barge companies to see if we can move the dates given to us for shipping. Right now we are being told that those dates are firm, however, we are asking for some consideration. We are also being notified by them that there is a lot of oil and gas activity in the different communities that they have to ship to, they have other priorities, and they have community resupply. So our request is not a serious one to them; we are not a big customer. We are looking at that, we are asking them for reconsideration. So we are taking it to Cabinet tomorrow. We are going to have the discussion on whether we can go ahead with a two-week extension; but to waive the whole project at this point, I don’t believe is something that we want to do.

I want to point out to the Member that we are also under extreme pressure from the communities not to do this, to continue to go ahead with this project and not waive it. It is something where there is a huge public outcry. We have heard it for years, we are trying to address it, we are trying to ensure that the communities in the Deh Cho, the Beaufort and the Sahtu have houses for this year. We don’t know what the effects of that will be by cancelling this project, and at this point, I will not consider advising or asking Cabinet. I wanted to just stress that point. Thank you.

Again, just a reminder, we do have a lot of people waiting on the list to ask questions, and we are running the clock a little bit here. So could you be specific to your responses to the questions, and also when you ask the question. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That doesn’t leave me with a great deal of surety on this. The Cabinet knew about this last week, they know that today is the last day of session, Mr. Speaker. Why can’t they make a decision, why do they have to wait until tomorrow, Mr. Speaker? Why is it that the government has to wait until tomorrow to get together to make a decision like this? I can’t for the life of me think of a reason why, except for that they won’t be able to be asked in public again why they waived the BIP on this. Mr. Speaker, does the tender actually split the cost of the units with the setup of the units, and how is that going to be managed when the actual units arrive in the communities they are scheduled to go to? Thank you.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Mr. Speaker, the contract is a contract for commodity, we have the detail here. It spells out the technical information that we were looking for. We are looking for a best-cost scenario. It is only for the mobile homes at this point; FOB Hay River for the barging communities, and the communities that are on the road system, FOB there. Thank you.

Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just one final supplementary. Is it the government’s intention to waive the BIP on the setup of these units as well when they get into the communities? Thank you.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 126-15(3): Tender For 22 Mobile Homes

Mr. Speaker, the responsibility for the setup will be handled by our LHOs. The BIP on this whole initiative was waived for all of it, I believe. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation is on the hot seat, maybe we will just carry on with some questions on his portfolio.

---Laughter

I wanted to ask the Minister, in light of the CMHC’s plans to eliminate all funding for public housing in Canada including the NWT by 2038, and that the conundrum of the NWT Housing Corporation is how are they going to raise their own revenue to retain the current level of public housing programs. One thing in the public housing program that has been a real crutch for the staff and the clients in public housing is the rent scale program, which leaves the local housing authorities with a very high level of outstanding receivables every year that the government tends to write off. It is a disincentive for people that are seeking full-time employment, and it provides many loopholes in the system where people are getting away with not paying their fair share of rent. It has been a concern for many Members that are both clients and just regular community members in my constituency, and I am sure others. I am wondering if the department and the Minister will commit to a comprehensive review of the rent scale program, which will address the concerns of LHOs and public housing clients, and not going with just basically what the headquarters staff recommendations are to adjustments in the program and how they will affect the public at large. Mahsi.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, two questions.

Return To Question 127-15(3): Review Of The Rent Scale Program For Public Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe it is housing theme week.

---Laughter

The issue by the Member is a serious one. It is something that has also been noted by the Auditor General that it is an issue that has to be focused on. We have been attempting to improve our collections. We have, over the last couple of years, seen drastic improvement. We still have a number of tenants who are in arrears. Our whole social program is based and assessed on tenants' ability to pay, with a ceiling of 30 percent. I will take that back for a review. It may be time that we do that, and I will get back to the Member with some time frames as to when that will happen. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 127-15(3): Review Of The Rent Scale Program For Public Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for his commitment to doing some kind of departmental review. Has the Housing Corporation ever considered the approach that the Nunavut government has been taking on their outstanding rent receivables that they have considered in their new rent scale program? Thank you.

Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 127-15(3): Review Of The Rent Scale Program For Public Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I haven’t personally reviewed the initiative by the Nunavut government. However, I will take the first opportunity to do so. Thank you.

Final supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 127-15(3): Review Of The Rent Scale Program For Public Housing

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will look forward to receiving some recommendations out of that review of the Nunavut rent scale because I think it works, and it takes a different approach and bases everything on the previous year’s taxable income of their clients.

Could the Minister instruct his department to come back within the next few months with some documentation on some well researched and consulted recommendation on changes to our current rent scale program? Thank you.