Debates of March 4, 2005 (day 49)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have to follow the guidelines set out by the federal government for the program. I can tell Members we are nowhere near satisfying the demand. I believe this year we had a waiting list of people who did not get any funding through the program because there was not enough money in the program to address all of the requests. The other problem with the program is it will not provide funding to Metis people. That’s something I have consistently written to the federal Minister and demanded that they reconsider their approach to this program, but I have not been successful yet. Would somebody who lived down south qualify for the program? It’s unlikely because we run out of money for northern residents before that sort of consideration could happen.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Time for oral questions has expired. The Chair will recognize the honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize my nephew Hank Pokiak who just walked in. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, I am in receipt of Return to Written Question 70-15(3) asked by Mr. Hawkins to the Honourable Joseph Handley on February 11, 2005, regarding Teacher Education Program graduates.

I am also in receipt of Return to Written Question 71-15(3) asked by Mr. Yakeleya to the Honourable Michael Miltenberger, Minister of Health and Social Services on February 15, 2005, regarding health services in the Sahtu.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document entitled Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act 2004 Annual Report. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I call Committee of the Whole to order. The Speaker has indicated the items on our agenda for Committee of the Whole. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Menicoche.

Madam Chair, the committee wishes to consider Bill 19, Appropriation Act, 2005-2006, specifically with the Department of Justice.

Is the committee agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you. We will do that after a short break.

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I call Committee of the Whole back to order. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. With your indulgence and committee’s, I would like to recognize two people in the gallery who have joined us this afternoon. They are constituents of mine in Great Slave. Fifty years ago tomorrow, Madam Chair, Tom and Muriel Eagle got married. They are planning a celebration or one is being planned for them for tomorrow. I am very pleased to welcome them to the Assembly and appreciate this opportunity to recognize them and wish them many, many more years. Thank you, Madam Chair.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. I would also like to say happy wedding anniversary and I sure hope that party tomorrow wasn’t a surprise.

---Laughter

We are on main estimates consideration for the Department of Justice. If the committee agrees, I will ask Mr. Dent if he would proceed with the opening remarks for the Department of Justice. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present the 2005-06 Department of Justice main estimates. These estimates offer details on how the department will allocate its resources to meet its mandate of administering justice, including corrections and policing, in the Northwest Territories.

The 2005-06 operational budget for the department is $79.8 million. This is an increase of .58 percent of approximately $460,000 from last year’s main estimates. This increase will help make our communities safer and improve access to legal aid services.

Seventy percent of our total budget will be spent on law enforcement, community justice and corrections. The department has six main areas of activity.

Services to government: The department provides legislative drafting and legal counsel to all GNWT departments. It is, in effect, the government’s law firm.

We are also implementing the Protection Against Family Violence Act. This work will include monitoring the impact of the legislation providing ongoing training to community workers and distributing public information to people all over the NWT. There is $9 million budgeted for services to government.

Law enforcement: The RCMP delivers policing services in the NWT under contract. This year, 10 new RCMP positions will be created. This is in addiction to the 12 positions added in the past two years. The funding will add six officers who will be assigned to detachments in Rae, Fort Providence, Yellowknife and Tuktoyaktuk. Three officers will form a traffic unit, and two of those positions will be based in Hay River. The final positions will be a full profile police dog and handler. We have budgeted $24.3 million for law enforcement activities.

Legal aid services: To improve public access to legal aid services, a dedicated Family Law Legal Aid Services Clinic has been opened. The main estimates include new funding in the legal aid services budget to support the ongoing operation of the new clinic. The Legal Services Board is responsible for the Court Worker Program, public legal education and for ensuring that all eligible NWT residents receive legal services. The GNWT and the federal government together provide $4.5 million for legal aid services.

Courts: NWT courts are impartial, timely and accessible. The total budget of $7.9 million includes operating the Justice of the Peace Court, Territorial Court, the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal, along with the court libraries and court reporters.

Community justice and corrections: The department has budgeted $31.1 million for adult and young offender facilities, probation and parole services, custodial placement programs like wilderness camps and the cultural programs that help in the rehabilitation of offenders. This money also funds programs that help prevent crime within communities through increased community participation, that support victims’ initiatives, and that support community justice needs.

Services to the public: The total of $3 million includes funding for public services like the coroner’s office, the public trustee, the rental office, legal registries and the Maintenance Enforcement Program.

Those are the key points of the 2005-06 Department of Justice main estimates. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I will now ask the Standing Committee on Social Programs for their comments on the review of the Department of Justice main estimates. I will start that with Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Standing Committee on Social Programs met with the Minister and his officials on January 18, 2005, to review the main estimates for the Department of Justice.

The committee noted expenditures of $79.803 million for operations expenses and $1.78 million to be spent on capital projects, of which $1.092 million is to be spent on preliminary work on a new standalone courthouse for Yellowknife.

A wide-ranging discussion on a number of issues, including proposed employee layoffs and shutdowns of facilities and services took place. The committee has the following comments on the 2005-2006 Main Estimates.

During the review of the business plans in September, the committee was advised that the department was looking at a partnership and leaseback arrangement with the Workers’ Compensation Board of the NWT and Nunavut on a shared building.

This was presented to committee in the form of an information item and was provided to let committee know there would be a substantial increase in operations expense related to future years' lease costs. The estimate was approximately $43 million over the lease period.

Since September, and the city’s refusal to consider the Gerry Murphy Arena site as a potential location, the department and the WCB have been unable to find a location that met the needs of both organizations.

The department has now proposed to build a $41 million standalone NWT law courts building on the NWT capital site between the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre and the Legislative Assembly.

All of the information provided to committee to date has indicated that having the government of the NWT build and pay for the NWT law courts building is the cheapest option that is available. The department has stated it will cost more to renovate the existing facility and the functionality and ability to expand in the future also call into question whether renovating is a viable option.

There will be considerable backlash in the rest of the Northwest Territories to the construction of a new NWT law courts building in Yellowknife. This is understandable, particularly in light of recent announcements of closures in Hay River.

The committee has the same reservations as other NWT residents but are forced to look beyond the sentiment of “just another big building for Yellowknife” or “there are people without houses - how can we even consider building a new $41 million courthouse?”

The department has proposed to spend $1.092 million on preliminary work related to the construction of a NWT law courts building in Yellowknife in 2005-06. The decision to build the courthouse is an unpalatable one for many northerners. These people will be looking for more information on the reasons we need a new courthouse and information on the costing exercise that has led the government to conclude that building their own standalone NWT courts building is the best option. Information will also have to be provided on the scope, size and facilities that will be included in a new standalone courthouse.

The committee wants to see the department come up with a solid communication plan on the need for a new courthouse so that interested members of the public have access to the relevant information on which the government is basing its decisions.

This issue has been referred to the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight for their input. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Standing Committee, upon re-examination of the information presented during the business planning process, and in examining information provided to committee as a result of the public uproar over the planned closures, recommended that both registries remain open.

The major reason that committee decided to recommend the Inuvik and Hay River registries remain open has to do with administration of justice in the regions.

In the case of Hay River, it makes no sense to have a resident Territorial Court judge without the necessary support staff to make sure she can function effectively.

In the case of Inuvik, the closure of the court registry would eliminate the chance of a resident Territorial Court judge ever being appointed there. The committee strongly recommends that the judicial vacancy on the Territorial Court be filled with the understanding and contractual requirement that the new judge will reside in Inuvik.

Members could not accept the argument that it was difficult to staff the positions in Inuvik as a reason to close the registry and delete the positions. We do not delete nurse or social worker positions we cannot fill, so why would we delete court registry positions?

The committee cannot argue that it would be cheaper to consolidate all justice activities in Yellowknife. Members are prepared to accept that, in some cases, there is a cost to getting justice closer to the people.

Members of the committee worked to ensure that the court registries in Hay River and Inuvik were not closed. There is a concern that the construction of a new courts facility in Yellowknife, one that would be overbuilt to meet future requirements, would mean that the department would consider proposing consolidating court registries in Yellowknife again. The Standing Committee on Social Programs would oppose any such move.

The committee remains concerned the Department of Justice has not prioritized the need for forward planning to meet the resource requirements of the RCMP to deal with the impact of resource development and the construction of the pipeline in the Mackenzie Valley.

Members of the committee who attended the December 2004 community preparedness workshop in Inuvik noted that even the proponents of the Mackenzie gas pipeline acknowledged the need for greater policing in the affected communities.

Committee members will be looking for evidence of forward planning in cooperation with the RCMP in the 2006-2009 Business Plan review next fall.

From all feedback to date, Madam Chair, the Members note that the situation at the North Slave Correctional Centre appears to be improving.

The report on the human resource practices at the centre clearly showed there was disconnect between senior management and staff. The recommendations and actions to date are steps in the right direction, and the department is to be commended for accepting and acting on the report.

Committee looks forward to a further briefing on the implementation of the recommendations contained in the report this spring, Madam Chair. Now I would like to turn it over to Mr. Braden, Madam Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Committee has difficulty accepting the department’s rationale and anticipated cost-savings associated with the closure of the remand unit at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre.

Members could not reconcile how the shifting of the responsibility for remand prisoners to the RCMP cells in Hay River would result in any significant cost-savings. The RCMP will have to expend resources to guard and transport remand prisoners. Just because this expense will be hidden within the larger overall contribution made to the RCMP to provide law enforcement services to the residents of the Northwest Territories does not mean we will not be on the hook for the expense. It just means the expense will no longer show on the GNWT’s books.

Another area of concern for committee members was the issue of how much time would the handling of remand prisoners take away from the RCMP’s ability to provide community patrol services in the South Slave.

In cases where the RCMP plane was not available to transport prisoners to court dates in Yellowknife, an RCMP officer would have to escort a prisoner on a commercial flight. Is taking RCMP officers out of the community a progressive step, considering the considerable investment this department has made in increasing the number of RCMP in Hay River? Committee members also see a need for an increased police presence in Hay River once pipeline construction begins, and have trouble supporting any actions that could possibly reduce their presence in the community.

The majority of members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs, with the concurrence of their counterparts on the Accountability and Oversight committee, recommended to the department during the main estimates review, that the funding for the operation of the remand unit at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre in the amount of $400,000 be reinstated.

The Financial Management Board has refused to reconsider its position and the remand unit remains on the chopping block.

The Standing Committee on Social Programs recommends that funding for the remand unit at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre be reinstated in the 2005-2006 Main Estimates for the Department of Justice. Madam Chair, I will now turn to Ms. Lee, our committee chair, to continue the report.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The committee regrets the circumstances that have led to the announced closure of the Dene K’onia Young Offenders Facility in Hay River.

Changes in federal legislation have meant a significant decrease in the number of young offenders who receive custodial sentences. We simply cannot justify keeping two male young offender facilities open in the Northwest Territories. Other jurisdictions in Canada have found themselves in the same circumstances and have come to the same conclusion that facilities must be closed.

The usage of the Dene K’onia facility for young offenders is over but that does not mean that the facility cannot be used for another purpose. The committee understands that the Department of Health and Social Services is examining the facility to see if it could be adapted for its purposes. The committee has also heard of a number of community-driven proposals of what to do with the facility. A community-driven solution for the long-term usage of the Dene K’onia facility would be the preferred option for committee members.

Committee members would appreciate being kept informed as proposals to use the Dene K’onia facility work their way through the system.

Some members of the committee have expressed concerns that the cuts to the justice program adversely affect those living in the regions and that any new funding for community justice programs does not go far enough in dealing with the needs of the community.

For the number of people incarcerated in our justice system to decrease, some Members see the need to involve communities more in the administration and application of justice. Custodial institutions in larger centres are not the preferred model of justice.

Members will be monitoring whether the layoffs of regional community justice coordinators have a negative effect on the operations of community justice committees over the next business planning cycle.

The Residential Tenancies Act is outdated and totally unable to deal with the realities of a rental market in an overheated economy. It is time for the department to renew this legislation for the benefit of renters and landlords alike.

The standing committee understands that the Minister is nearly ready to begin consultation on the need for new legislation and looks forward to further information and timelines prior to the end of the budget session.

Madam Chair, that concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Social Programs review of the budget for the Department of Justice.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Does the committee agree that we should ask the Minister if he would like to bring witnesses into the House?

Agreed.

Thank you. Mr. Dent, if you would like to please invite your witnesses in. I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms if he would please escort the witnesses to the table.

Mr. Dent, would you please introduce your witnesses, for the record?

Thank you, Madam Chair. With me today I have the deputy minister, Mr. Don Cooper; and, the director of finance, Ms. Kim Schofield.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments. Are there any general comments on the Department of Justice?

Detail.

Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yesterday we had quite a good debate on a number of aspects of justice and the administration of justice in the Territories. Our motion, Madam Chair, had a focus and a purpose on it in that it sought to encourage the government to do more to enable communities to be more involved and to take greater responsibility in the administration and in the sentencing, the accountability on the part of the offender and hopefully the restoration of that person back into the good books of the community, if you will.

The aspect of this that has intrigued me for some time, Madam Chair, is the notion that our conventional system of justice whereby an alleged offender is first of all apprehended by police officers or some other authority that they may or may not know or have much connection with. Then they go through a series of procedures with lawyers, with prosecutors and other people in the justice system, again that they probably don’t know and in the case of our smaller communities, people who fly in for a few hours or maybe a day or two every few weeks or months. A judge, in the same circumstances, may not even be from their region, let alone from the community. A sentence may be rendered that takes them out of their region, puts them into a facility with no connection with the offender’s real life and then after a time they are put back in with the expectation that they have served their penalty, if you will. They may have undergone some treatment or some program to help them along. Then at the end of the day they go back into their community, and quite likely, Mr. Chairman, into the same circumstances that probably resulted in them offending in the first place.

This is where if -- again, my own notion -- anyone is to be able to change their behaviour or their lifestyle, they have to take responsibility for what they do. When our court system isolates an offender and a victim, separates them, then there is no chance for responsibility to be addressed for the offences to be dealt with at that face-to-face level. I really don’t see how we are going to be able to be effective. Certainly now, and in the past, I don’t think it has much going for it and I just can’t see it continuing in the future. That is why I think that anything that we can do to bring the administration and the implementation of justice to the community level, would probably be one of the most progressive things we can do.

We had a discussion on some aspects of this in our debate yesterday, but I would like to continue exploring this. Certainly with Mr. Cooper's experience on the frontlines of justice here for many years, I would really appreciate the Minister's and the deputy’s comments to this notion of mine, that community-based justice is probably something that would do us better than what we are doing now. Am I on the right track with that, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t think the Member would find any different opinion from Mr. Cooper or me, that justice delivered at the community level is better justice. I think what we would say, and Mr. Cooper advises me, that the community involvement in the Northwest Territories is already higher than what you would find anywhere else in Canada.

We have, across the Northwest Territories, 30 active community justice committees, where we are seeing them do exactly what the Member is recommending. They are taking administration of justice to the residents of that community and we are quite satisfied that they are doing it well. One of the reasons that we looked to find a way to increase the funding for community justice committees was just that. We have a number of committees that are very active and are finding themselves hard pressed to continue to deliver the level of service they are within the funding that was available, so we were under some pressure to increase it.

That is one of the reasons that we have managed to find the extra $240,000 to make available to those in this budget before you. We have a number of other things that we have done. We have accessed innovation funds from the federal government through the agreement for legal aid that allows us to ensure that lawyers get out ahead of the court party, to visit communities and talk to people who will be appearing in front of a judge at a subsequent date. We are trying to improve on the delivery of justice in the communities by making sure that it isn’t all the same day, that the accused doesn’t just meet their lawyer and then in a matter of a half-an-hour later, appear in front of the judge. We are trying to make sure that there is a chance for consultation.

The Member talked about facilities. We put a lot of emphasis in the North on trying to make sure that where offenders are sentenced to facilitates, that they are respectful and reflective of the culture of the North. We have a lot of people working in those facilities who are well versed in programming to address the cultural needs and spiritual underpinnings of northern society. We think that we are doing a fairly good job right now. There is always room for improvement, and I certainly can’t disagree with the Member when he says that the best justice is that delivered closest to home. That is why we are working at strengthening the community justice committees and why we continue to support on-the-land camps as one method of providing service.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the discussion on this area. Mr. Chairman, a couple aspects of it that I might go to; the news, that compared to any other jurisdiction, we are busier on this front than most parts of Canada is impressive. I would like to see if the department could supply at some time or make public or make more public, any kind of report or assessment or snapshot on the level, the amount and the nature of these committees.

Just to give one example, perhaps in a given community, it doesn’t matter which one, what percentage of applicable offences would be referred to a community justice committee and what percentage would go through the conventional court system. It is my understanding that police have some jurisdiction and in some cases even the offender has some discretion into whether to choose the community justice system or the court system. Just getting some sense of how active we are, what are the trends in terms of acceptance and effectiveness of the community system? If there are existing reports and they have already been presented to the committee, I apologize. Perhaps I just need to be reminded.

The one other question that I put on this issue, Mr. Chairman, the Minister advised that the proposed budget puts an additional $240,000 into this program and I am just wondering if we have found or made it a priority to inject more money in, would there be a corresponding increase in activity. Is it largely a matter of funding that is potentially holding us back, or are there other things we need to factor in here? Those are the two things that I leave on the table. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At this point we are just in the process of beginning to start to get the statistics on the activities of the community justice committees. We have only recently been able to provide all communities with that $20,000 in extra funding for them to hire a part-time coordinator. Many of them didn’t have the resources before or even the ability to collect the statistics of what they were doing themselves. That was one of the reasons for looking at this as a needed investment.

Now the committees have someone or should have someone available who can start to collect some of those statistics and provide us with some more information. It is a difficult area for us to get information in. If somebody is diverted, then they are totally out of the criminal justice system, so there isn’t a record that sort of matches to help us offset. That is the whole purpose; to keep people who can be diverted totally out of the justice system so they don’t have a record, it doesn’t show up, it’s not something that is tracked in that way; the same formal way that it normally happens in the justice system.

So getting the detailed stats that the Member has asked about will be difficult, but we are going to be able to start to collect information on what types of cases are before the committees and how many diversions they are actually involved in. As the Member pointed out, there’s a whole set of circumstances that have to be met for a person to move into a diversion. The accused themselves have to admit to the guilt. So they have to agree that this is an offence that they have committed and that they are prepared to work with the community to resolve the issue. The RCMP, of course, have to agree that it should go that way and, depending on the offence, it could involve some consultations with the victim and the Crown. So there has to be a whole group that agrees that this is the right way to proceed. But when you get that situation, typically the whole process can then take place within the community.

Would more money help? That’s a difficult question to answer right now, too. As the committees develop more and more, as they become more and more active, there will likely be demands for more money. At this point we think that we can meet the demand within the budget that we have proposed. So we were starting to hear from some of the committees that were being very active, that they did need more money and this was the response. So we will have to keep our eyes and ears open on this and be prepared to respond further. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. Menicoche next.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just reflecting over the past year-and-a-half, and justice certainly does play a big role in the Nahendeh riding, which I represent. We have six communities in my riding and it’s a huge ground to cover, especially when we’re talking about law enforcement. There is a lot of moving around for the members, fall-time and springtime is rather difficult because of breakup and freeze-up. Particularly in Fort Simpson and the communities that they service, one of the biggest issues this year was they were cutting one member and we fought it hard, Mr. Chair. We tried to keep that position, and perhaps the Minister can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what happened with that position was that we never actually lost the position, I think we just didn’t fill it. If the Minister could confirm that to me.

I can see rather quickly too, especially with the development that is planned for our region with the Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline, Mr. Chair, things are starting to pick up in the region. Recently I was in Fort Simpson, last Friday, in fact, and we had the Minister of Transportation there and they had traffic counters in and around Fort Simpson. At first face it looks like traffic volumes have doubled over last year, from 600 trucks up to 1,800 trucks and it’s no wonder my honourable colleague from the Sahtu is getting bounced around on the roads because things are picking up. We didn’t expect that. We thought perhaps when the construction of the Mackenzie gas pipeline is planned, that the increase in traffic and the increase in the population of transients, et cetera, would happen then. But I am reminded that it happens before these developments actually happen. Directors and people wishing to take advantage of the opportunities will be coming out of the woodwork. The carpetbaggers start to come out of the woodwork and they’re making their way north, Mr. Chairman, because things are already stretching. Transient centres are being called for and it’s because of what is happening out there and it is a reality and it begins today.

Another thing that impacted the riding was that we lost our original justice coordinator, only because it was explained to me the role of the justice coordinator was to get the community justice circles going and underway. In fact, that’s what happened, but now we’ve removed the community justice coordinator, but we’re left with a void, Mr. Chair, because what’s happening is that there is nobody there, there is no intermediary between the justice, which is the RCMP and the courts and the community justice circles. Someone has to physically organize these meetings and get them to the meeting, create the agenda for the meetings and that gap is gone now. So I’m not too sure how helpful that is to the region. So it kind of hampers the whole concept of the community justice system. So that’s something that we really have to be aware of and do something to mitigate that. I know there’s a little bit of a budget for the community justice circles, but I’m not too sure if the department has done an assessment recently to say because we removed the community justice coordinator, what impact is the whole concept, the whole goal, the whole objective of the program. Can it still function without this regional coordinator role?

Another thing I wish to speak on is the Prevention Against Family Violence Act. It is something that was a long time coming, and I think it has got to be rolled out a lot better because it’s still not being used out there. It changes the definition of who remains in the home and people aren’t aware of that because there are wives or female spouses being abused, as well as husbands or male spouses. They’re being abused too and, according to the act, they are entitled to maintain and run the home if it is indeed the woman that is the abuser. So I don’t know if it is clear out in the communities. I know in the larger centres there are special interest groups that lobby on behalf of this and make these changes or this new legislation, as well as proceedings too, Mr. Chair.

As we get back to the RCMP in the communities, in the smaller communities, particularly in Wrigley, Mr. Chair, was that when I went there they’ve always wanted a nurse and they say okay, well, we’ll get an RCMP officer. So I say okay, well that should be easy enough and they say can we get an RCMP member back there. But because of what’s happening in the world and a few incidences, I am with the department when they came back with their response and they tell me that we can’t just get one RCMP officer, you need two. So we need two RCMP officers for each community and only then, at that time, will the Department of Health and Social Services look at nurses. It’s something that is needed. Wrigley is one of the few communities that has a declining population, and one of the reasons is that the young people are leaving with their old people to take care of them in places like Fort Simpson or Providence or even in Yellowknife. It’s no wonder that the population is declining, but the need is still there for nurses, because I just got a recent inquiry.

Our senior and elderly population in the communities are old, Mr. Chair, they are very old. Some of them are even 90 years old and they are still living in the communities, and I would like to applaud them for having the stamina to be able to get around and keep their houses going. But when they get sick, Mr. Chair, they get really sick and just with that alone, that’s why people would like to see a nurse. They want them properly diagnosed, because oftentimes they get misdiagnosed at that age. But just the whole ratio of RCMP to nurses; and we certainly want them happy, that’s for sure. But if there’s a way to create a presence in the community, I would like to urge the department to look at that.

I think what the Department of Health and Social Services does, particularly around Fort Simpson and Wrigley, is that during freeze-up and breakup, what they do is they actually send a staff member in for that month that the required service is not accessible by road, only by air, because the night-time is a real concern. If justice can have a really good look at going in there and doing a two or three-week stint during these periods, Mr. Chair, I think that would go a long ways in showing the community that yes, Justice cares, that they’ll show a presence and acknowledge that things will happen in the night that we just can’t get to and control.

So those are some of the things that the riding I represent is faced with today. The same concerns, too, are for the RCMP members in Fort Liard, Mr. Chair. The members there are doing their job the best they can with the absence of a secretary, is the way that they put it. The members are spending a lot of time on their paperwork and the community feels that it is not making them responsive enough in the communities, that they’re making a presence in the communities or traveling the highway around Fort Liard. The stats are there that, because of the recent development, there was an increase in the social pressures. There’s more drinking and there are harder drugs in that community and the RCMP have been very busy doing the border controls, because that’s a border for so many communities. Just that extra burden of doing extra paperwork really does take a lot away from the community.

I see my time is up, Mr. Chair, so I’ll just end on that note. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. I have Mr. Pokiak next.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of quick general comments. With regard to law enforcement again, as the Minister knows, yesterday we had…(inaudible)…a justice team, and again I would like to reiterate, Mr. Chairman, that a student liaison officer by the RCMP in Yellowknife schools is unthinkable. Like I said yesterday, Mr. Chairman, Sachs Harbour is a community that requires a presence in their community.

Having said that, I’ll go on to my next general comment with regard to legal aid services. It’s good to see -- well, I hope it is -- that the law services office is open here in Yellowknife. It has been a long time coming for Yellowknife. But from what I understand, Mr. Chairman, is that it might be a little too small on office space. I don’t know if that is true or not, but that is what I have been hearing.

I’d like to talk about the court services first, Mr. Chairman. In the main estimates we’re looking at a new courthouse for Yellowknife, and it’s astounding the amount of money that we can spend on courts. We’re talking up to $41 million, Mr. Chairman, with regard to a new courthouse in Yellowknife over the next few years. With that amount of money, Mr. Chairman, I think we could do a lot of preventative maintenance for our people in the Territories. We could have more houses, like we talked about earlier, Mr. Chairman. Just on that note, Mr. Chairman, I will not support the spending of $41 million for a courthouse in Yellowknife when it comes down to voting on that issue. Just to be on notice, Mr. Chairman.

I’d like to talk a little bit about the young offenders, Mr. Chairman, with regard to wilderness camps and cultural programs. I think it is going to work in smaller communities. I know one instance in Tuktoyaktuk where the justice committee, at one time, talked about trying to open up a similar program to that for a wilderness camp program for young offenders. The problem is that with the liability and the costs, they just can’t afford something like that, especially for the interested couple that is willing to take the young offenders out for programs to understand the Inuvialuit way of life. Those are just general comments right now, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. I have Mrs. Groenewegen next.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have been looking forward to this opportunity to speak to the Department of Justice budget during this budget session. I don’t think, Mr. Chairman, that anybody will be surprised that as a Member representing Hay River I’m not happy with this budget. We’re all politicians and I honestly cannot imagine what was going through Minister Dent’s mind when his department brought forward cuts and reduction initiatives that would be so impacting on one community, on one region in the South Slave, and would see job losses of 5.5 positions at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, 12 full-time positions at Dene K’onia, 10 casual employees who are pretty much full-time at Dene K’onia, and then, as well, the anticipated seven jobs at the court registries, which has, thankfully, been reversed and dealt with.

Mr. Chairman, all of these three closures, the combined number of losses of jobs, the multiplier effect which you could apply to that and the impact in one community and really when you look at the entire budget of this government, in fact there was no community and no department that I’m aware of that was as significantly impacted as the Department of Justice.

One of the things I found curious in the Minister’s opening comments today when he talked about the overall budget, in fact, of the Department of Justice, actually going up and I don’t know exactly how you reconcile that to the target for reductions that were anticipated, but at some point I would like the Minister to respond to that. So from a whole number of vantages, this action that is proposed to play out in Hay River and in the South Slave region is not acceptable government, in my opinion. The government has a policy of decentralization of services and all three of these initiatives, unfortunately, saw closure of facilities in a region, creates loss of jobs, loss of services and all of them resulted in this service being offered and consolidated in Yellowknife, which I think is particularly unpalatable. Hay River, I think, would not have taken the same position if any of these positions would have been decentralized further out in the South Slave region, but in fact they are all being pulled right back into Yellowknife; certainly nothing against Yellowknife’s good fortunes. We hear the words overheated and we can all see, as we move about in the capital, that this particular community at this time is doing very well. I don’t think that we, as a government, need to add and contribute to that by killing and squashing programs and services in our regions and in our smaller communities. I don’t think that that’s an acceptable way of doing business.

So I have been raising questions over the course of the last few weeks with the Minister and I have been getting answers and I know it’s been complex and complicated and even difficult to follow for people, because a lot of the decision was based on numbers, which I have taken the position are arguable. I don’t accept the numbers that were put forward by the Department of Justice, and the Minister has gone on record indicating that these reductions were done solely on the basis of economics. It wasn’t about better service, it wasn’t about providing a different service. I don’t think anybody has argued that the services that were provided in Hay River and in the South Slave were not good. I think that when you look at the facilities that are impacted, Dene K’onia, you see the statistics on the long service of the employees and the training that the employees have there. You look at how they performed within the budgets that they were allocated over the years, and they were certainly very efficient. You look at the quality of the programs that they delivered in terms of the results that they had with the young people who were put in their charge and their care, and you see positive results there. You look at the infrastructure in terms of the building, and you see something that has had investment made into it over the years. I believe that Public Works and Services has even recently been down to Hay River and assessed that building.

When you look at the remand facilities in Hay River, there are six remand beds and the statistics that I have received indicate that those six remand beds have an average occupancy over the past year of 5.9. So, essentially, the uptake was 100 percent on the remand facilities in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. So something else other than good planning and good management is driving these initiatives. It’s bad management, it’s bad politics. I just can’t think of a single good thing to say about what’s being done here, except for the Minister indicating that it helped meet his targets to reduce his budget for the Department of Justice.

As a result of the questions that I asked, I suppose, the Audit Bureau took a look at the savings that were projected and forecast by the closure of these facilities, and the Minister and the Finance Minister were kind enough to provide Members with a briefing on that. That did not go anyway towards convincing me that these numbers are sound. When the Minister is answering questions in the House, Mr. Chairman, it was kind of on this give or take, kind of loose parameters on the numbers. Well, I think the Audit Bureau’s report has only borne out the fact that the department did not delve into the historical data that was available to come up with more accurate numbers.

One of the areas that I have been particularly amazed by is the assertion that when you relocate remand prisoners from the South Slave and Hay River to Yellowknife, that in fact it was only going to require an estimated $18,000 to transport these inmates to and from court appearances in their communities. I don’t think there was a proper assessment done on what it was going to take for manpower to escort these prisoners. I think that sometimes it’s RCMP, sometimes it’s corrections officers. It depends on the risk involved with the inmate that’s being transported.

We keep hearing reference to the RCMP plane. That is not something that travels and moves about at no cost. I think that the $18,000 is incorrect and I believe that the Audit Bureau made reference to that. It says the estimated incremental cost of $18,000 was not supported by any historical data. Although it's not clear in the initial business plan submission, this amount has recently been referred to as a travel cost for individuals from Hay River to the North Slave Correctional Centre. Our review indicated that there were too many variables and too little information to form a reasonable estimate. Yet these are the numbers that we have heard defended over and over again in this House. This is just in one area.

As to the projected savings of $400,000 overall by relocating the remand inmates to Yellowknife, I think we’ve kind of discovered that’s not really an accurate number either. I guess I was confused to as to how we were to realize that savings immediately in the next fiscal year, given the fact that we were only going to reduce the positions by attrition. As I’ve indicated in this House before, government jobs in Hay River are very valued and people tend to stay in them for a long time. It isn’t like you can just leave one government job at one department and just walk down the street and apply for any number of vacancies that might exist in another department. That’s not the case in Hay River. When people get a government job in Hay River, they tend to hang on to it for a long time, because they’re kind of scarce and there doesn’t tend to be that many opportunities to become involved in the public service there.

I think that the principle or premise on which this savings was based, that it was going to be by attrition, I think was confusing at least, and certainly the Audit Bureau indicated as well that perhaps the savings weren’t really $400,000, maybe it was something more like $267,000. But there happens to be a vacant position at the South Mackenzie Correction Centre right now, so that contributes to some realized savings right away.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess my time is up. I’ll stop there for now to give other Members a chance, but I’ll ask to be put back on the list again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.