Debates of March 7, 2005 (day 50)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to my right I have the deputy minister of Public Works and Services, Bruce Rattray, and to my left I have the director of the petroleum products division, Mr. Mike Aumond.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, Mr. Aumond. Welcome, Mr. Rattray. Thank you for attending at this late hour. Thank you. We are on general comments, Public Works and Services. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to take this opportunity to speak about something that is pretty eminent to the residents of Fort Simpson. The governments plan to shut down the Pointe Hall, or the Deh Cho Hall, in Fort Simpson in 2006. Apparently, they are basing their studies on some phantom report that no one has ever seen. I don’t know if they have seen it themselves, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps the Minister can speak about that, because constituents of mine -- the Village of Fort Simpson -- has sort of been asking for this report and apparently it has been in the system for some time now, and no one has ever actually seen it, Mr. Chair, so we would like to see what the department is basing their decision on. As well, I do have to note that since I heightened the awareness of this issue to the department, they did have a meeting, I believe it was last Monday, and they are interested in further consultation with the community. But above all, Mr. Chairman, I think the community does want to save the building. It is not falling apart on us, everybody can see that the foundation is good, but apparently some of the issues were bringing it up to code.

Often when it comes to that stage, someone always says it is cheaper to replace than to retrofit, but I am not too sure at what stage or what the government experts have seen. People think that it’s a perfectly serviceable building that we can save if we make some effort, but we have to know…We are asking the department to have a second look at it and say, here is this building based on what you know or based on a new assessment, because I am not too sure if anything has changed from the last two to four years when that first assessment was done.

People want to know what it is going to need to retrofit that building and to keep it going. It’s not really government people impacted. Even though it is not our prime responsibility, we still take care of the NGOs out there. We have this huge facility that is not costing us any extra to house our day care that is there, not costing anything extra to house Aurora College that has benefited from that as well. Those are good things -- and a library -- Mr. Chairman, those are good things. It is quite honourable of the government to keep these things going.

If we shut down this building -- it is 30,000 square feet -- do you know how many millions that requires to replace all that square footage? If you think the communities are screaming for $40 million, just think of what they will scream if we get a building for Fort Simpson out of Yellowknife. The need for the infrastructure is very high in the Nahendeh riding, so that is our simple request; have a look at this building, it is structurally sound, help us save it, give us a cost estimate as to how much it will cost to fix it up.

One of our biggest goals -- everybody knows this, too -- is that when you look at the whole of the Deh Cho, you’ve got Simpson, it’s like smack dab in the route of the pipeline. Everybody says, okay, well we are going to have to create capacity and it’s all about training. So we need a regional training facility and this building really fits the bill, Mr. Chairman.

That is the way people see this building; as redoing it and I know that, as well, there is the private market putting pressure on the government to use them as well. If we can somehow redesignate this building or reallocate it and use it as a training facility, I think that would go a long way. It has a kitchenette in there that can be salvaged for cooking courses, and it has all kinds of computer training facilities, and pre-trade stuff, and it would go a long way in servicing our region.

Even in the riding, people talk about traveling all the way to Smith; they will do it if they have the initiative. If it is going to happen in Fort Simpson, the community people from Jean Marie and Trout Lake will be happy to go to Simpson for a year or two, to do what training they are interested in or what training is available there. Just with that concern in mind, Mr. Chairman, I will give the Minister an opportunity to respond to that particular item.

Mahsi, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman the Member raises a number of good points about why it would be good to try to keep a facility in the community as long as possible.

In this day and age, the cost of replacing facilities is very expensive. Part of the problems we run into though, is the age of the facility and the code that buildings were built to back when, in this particular case, the building was built in 1957. The code requirements at that time were much different that they are in today’s environment. In fact, there has been a technical status evaluation done on that facility and the Member should be receiving a copy of that in the very near future; I believe something went out today. The information that we have is that the fire marshal inspected the building back in May 2002 and along with some immediate corrective action, we were told that without major upgrades to the facility to meet the code requirements that are in place, we would not be able to use the facility beyond 2006. That is why the Department of Education, Culture and Employment along with Public Works and Services have started to have a number of meetings to discuss the options that are out there for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment when it comes to space that they will be requiring.

Again, I believe the most recent estimates for renovation of that facility run in the neighbourhood of approximately $17 million. For a new facility we would be looking at about $19 million, so we have been meeting with Education, Culture and Employment around the requirements they will need for space. It is their facility, we have been supporting them from Public Works and Services' side on a technical side, along with securing the space that they will require to run their programs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn’t realize that some of the cost estimates were already out there. I did note that when I was talking with the new fire marshal that was hired in Fort Simpson, he had his difference of opinion as to how much work has to be done and retrofitted. He had his view, so there is a little bit of discrepancy there. That is why I am asking can we take another assessment, look at this thing, Mr. Chairman.

That is what I would like to get from the Minister. They did a technical status viability in 2000-01. I think it will serve the community well if they do it again. It is highlighted in the news and in the Legislature as well, and I think it will be worth the government's while to go back and do another one of their technical status reports and update it.

People in the community are really suspicious because this viability report that I am going to get, who knows when, is something that the people in the community have never seen. Even people that are primary users of that facility have never seen this viability report. In fact, when the fellow went to the village meeting, he mentioned that report too, that no one has really seen. It is probably like many reports, it’s technical but it is probably not secretive. Anyway, the whole point of what I would like to say is can we do it again? Can we do an updated one with people from the community involved and say okay, yes, based on what we know today and this new assessment, this first one was right? Can we do that, Mr. Chairman?

Mahsi, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the reason we have become involved again, is the fire marshal who did the inspection back in May of 2002 required us, or the Department of Education, Culture and Employment…This is how it would have worked. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment would have been informed that they would have up until 2006 for use of the facility to come up with other plans. We got involved, as they were notified of this, in securing space and doing the technical work around this evaluation, so that was done.

The Department of Education, Culture and Employment, if they feel that they could or want to try to keep this going, would have to secure the dollars or come forward with a plan to identify the dollars so that we can do the renovations that are required to bring it up to code. Again, we are going on the fire marshal's orders. If there is another opinion of a fire marshal out there, we can have a new look at that. That is a possibility, depending, if, in fact, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment wants to bring that process back up and have it reviewed once again. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For a new office building, what does it go through in an assessment process, in terms of a community getting an office complex or office buildings to house their community governments in? I want to ask the Minister that, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the way the process would work, if there’s a requirement for office space in a community, the department that would be requiring the space would come to us and seek our input as to if there is existing space available. If there is no existing space available, then they would come to us with a requirement for a certain size of space and what they would be needing it for. We would then get involved in that process of coming up with some preliminary estimates and designs. At that point, the department, with those figures, would go forward and see if they could have those numbers established in the budget line. If that’s approved, then we would get involved when the appropriate approvals were given by the Assembly and start the process of some engineering work and architectural work and then construction if things went ahead. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Yakeleya.

Is there room in the department in terms of having community groups and community corporations involved in some of the construction work in terms of facilities that are going to be built in the communities? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, once a project is approved and put into the capital plan in the year it is approved, when contracts are let out there is room to involve community corporations in that phase, the construction phase. But the front end work we do with departments is based on the department’s requirement. If it’s Education, Culture and Employment about the size of a school, they would come to us with that preliminary information. If it’s Municipal and Community Affairs for a shop or something of that nature or RWED for an office, we would become involved in that place. Once that approval has been given and we get to the construction phase of that work, then there are a number of avenues that corporations and community businesses can get involved in. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I imagine there are many requests from all the departments in terms of infrastructure in the communities. I’m surprised that the community of Colville Lake is not somewhere in here in terms of complex office building. Their facility is a log cabin where there is limited space. It’s very busy in Colville Lake. There’s one central building for all the government functions. There are two outhouses that they use. Very cold in the wintertime, Mr. Chairman. I’ve experienced it myself. A lot of bugs in the summer.

I guess I’m wondering, in terms of priorities, in terms of facilities in Colville Lake, I understand there’s some talk about having a new school there, but that will be a couple years. So for the infrastructure into a small community building, they’ve been asking for discussions on that. What does it take from this government to make sure that somehow that gets into the books for some planning? They’re actually hoping for some construction. Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, again, the process would be the responsible department, once there’s agreement there that there’s additional space required, would put their plan for that space into the system. If it was approved and dollars were attached to that and identified and approved through this budget process, we would then get involved through Public Works and Services' side on issuing and getting the engineering work done, architectural work and then issuing the contracts for that construction and doing the inspection to the final phase where the building would be turned over. We’d be involved in that. But it would be the appropriate department. If it’s a municipal building where municipal services are required, office space is required, they would go through their preliminary work to identify their shortfall in space and bring it to us for some further work and cost estimates. But then it would have to make it through the capital planning process to get into the final phase and criteria for approval. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take it then it will be the departments working with your department, in terms of what projects get funded this year and next year and so forth. I wanted to ask about the maintenance and that in the communities. Have there been discussions with your department in terms of amalgamating the different departments that all have the same service, you know, the office building for plumbing or sewer or for furnace or office maintenance? Has there been any talk with your department to amalgamate into one organization? Because sometimes there are three or four different people working on different jobs, doing the same things but through different organizations and different departments. I just wanted to ask the Minister if he’s considering that or if something is being done in that area. Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, a lot of things over the years have changed within Public Works and Services since the days of government services. A lot of departments have taken more and more of the program end of operations and done those. We’ve also gone through a privatization initiative where a lot of the work we used to do is done by the private sector through contracts. As well as user pay/user say is another term that affected the department in a fairly significant way when departments were given the control of the dollars for their operational facilities and they would go out and contract on their own.

What we’ve also done, for example, when Public Works and Services was very into the operations and maintenance of equipment facilities buildings, we used to have a lot of shops that would travel around and individuals that would travel around to communities to do the maintenance work. What we’ve found now is communities have taken on that area and are doing a lot of their own work through the hamlets or municipalities. So they’ve done that on that side of it. So there’s a lot of the work that has been moved over to either communities directly or through privatization and contractors.

Recently there hasn’t been a move that way. We’ve worked closely with Municipal and Community Affairs, Health and Social Services in the area of water systems and we’re working with, for example, on the petroleum side, the Power Corporation on a possibility there of sharing that avenue. What we’ve found in some areas where we’ve devolved some of this, departments have come back to us and requested some of our staff to do the work as they found it to be too expensive when they’re doing it on a small isolated situation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Last question to the Minister in terms of going back to Colville Lake and the school there, they have no running water. They’re on the honey bucket system. What happens there? I’m asking the Minister for clarification in changing that honey bucket system to a regular washroom like any other school that has the proper washroom facilities. I don’t think part of the education curriculum is taking out the honey bucket and changing that. I want to ask what is the department or government doing to help these little kids over in Colville Lake. Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, again in the example the Member has brought up around the school and its facilities, when it comes to washrooms and the water facilities, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment would have to establish the project. The work that would be required to either renovate the existing facility or once they’ve identified what work needs to be done, we would become involved in doing a bit of the feasibility work where is it worth renovating or is it time to get into a new facility. Once that work is done and goes through the capital planning process, if it makes the criteria, it gets established into the five-year capital plan. At the same time some of the other impacts we have to look at throughout the whole community, and Municipal and Community Affairs would be involved in this, is the area of the treatment of the sewage and the facilities that would be required to undertake that, as well. So there are a number of activities that would go on, but again it would initiate with the department. If it’s a school, if it’s a hamlet garage, if it’s a POL site or petroleum products site, it would initiate from that level and we would then get involved after they’ve initiated the work in that area. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I have Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It’s too bad I wasn’t here when MACA was here earlier, but I think I’m going to ask the question to the Minister right now with regard to some of the projects that are carried out. At the present time in Tuktoyaktuk and Paulatuk, there is talk about the erosion problem. I know that indirectly Public Works and Services have a play especially, I think, in regard to the geotechnical work, so to speak, I guess on behalf of MACA with regard to that. I’m just wondering, right now at the present time, both in my community and Paulatuk, they are concerned about the erosion problem. Have you guys had any discussions with regard to that to try to rectify some of the problems for this coming year? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am aware of some of the erosion concerns from the communities the Member has raised, but the involvement that we would get into from the Public Works and Services side would be somewhat limited. Again if the project has been established, contracts would be let out in those areas of geotechnical work that needs to be done. In some cases we might be directly involved; in some cases it may be strictly within the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. I’d need to get more detail on the specifics of the project. Again, as well, if it directly involved the hamlet and the work they might be doing in those areas and how it would tie to the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is it possible to find out, I know the hamlet has been talking with MACA, like I say, both in Tuktoyaktuk and Paulatuk, but when you say directly and indirectly involved, can you give me an example of at what point in time Public Works and Services would be involved with cases like this? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, again, once the project has been approved through the Assembly and the dollars are approved, the sponsored department -- in this case it would be Municipal and Community Affairs -- would look at the work. If they had the expertise and decided to follow through with their own process, we would have very limited involvement. They could call us in if they wanted to get some specific areas of information from us or they could call us in to manage the project, as well. So there are a number of different ways that can flow. But I guess I can commit to the Member on these areas to try to get more information for him once we get a bit more detail. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will work closely with the Minister and MACA right now in regard to these erosion problems both in Paulatuk and Tuktoyaktuk. I want to touch on the petroleum products division, Mr. Chairman. You can recall about two years ago the petroleum products in Tuktoyaktuk was privatized to a local company in Tuktoyaktuk. There have been a lot of private homeowners that have seen a lot of increase in their heating fuel and also the use of gas for their vehicles. Can the Minister give me a sense of how you determine or what you take into consideration when you decide to privatize a petroleum products division? I wrote a letter to the Minister some time back and the privatization of the petroleum products in Tuktoyaktuk was confidential in nature. I hope when they do that again they take into consideration the benefits of people who are homeowners. Mr. Chairman, right now it’s cheaper for me to get the fuel truck in from Arctic Dove in Inuvik when they do come down versus what I have to get in Tuktoyaktuk. Can the Minister give me an idea of a sense of what is actually taken into consideration before privatizing petroleum products? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, at one point the government-wide decision was to allow for privatization of facilities, specifically petroleum product facilities we had in communities. That happened in a number of communities. It was felt though as the larger communities were pulled off line that it was getting to the point where it would be uneconomical for both a business to try to operate in some of these communities as well as it became more cost prohibitive on our shop to look at further privatization initiatives, because the economies of scale would lose ground with each one. It is the policy, however, of the government that if an individual or company were to establish in a community, that we would not compete with them. We wouldn’t necessarily pull out the services and decommission our facilities; we would hang on to our facilities for some time to ensure that there would be an adequate supply of services to that community. In each case, when a proposal was brought forward, the review of providing a service, the requirements, the liabilities, would be taken into consideration. But once a decision was made and there was support at the time by community and the leadership for that move, then once that transfer has happened then again it becomes a private sector operated facility and as the GNWT we would not have influence on the prices, besides that of what the cost is to ourselves in trying to recoup some of the cost to the GNWT. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so I can understand correctly, once petroleum products are privatized is the government saying they cannot dictate the cost of what the fuel cost and gas price should be? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what the Member has stated is correct. Once an operation has been privatized and it’s a private market, that is private business that is operating it, we have no ability to influence the price. The only thing that can then influence, and the Member has hit on it a bit here, is competition from another company. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t know if I can go into this, I’m still on petroleum products, but I’m looking at the main estimates going back to 2003-04. Can the Minister give me a sense of grant-in-kind of $524,000? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What page would that be on? What section of Public Works and Services? I can try to provide that detail to the Member.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Either that or Mr. Pokiak could hold his question until we get to that page. Mr. Pokiak.