Debates of March 7, 2005 (day 50)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Minister, there’s quite a considerable amount of justice dollars being invested into Yellowknife on some of the notes here. The young offenders facility, the adult facility and now the new courthouse facility. It’s adding up quite a bit, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask if the department is going to look at putting some of those kinds of dollars in future years to the communities and regions. Compared to what’s going into Yellowknife here with regard to those facilities and what you show us you have for the communities is peanuts. I want to see if his department is going to consider investing some real dollars into the communities. How soon can we see that, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I guess I hope we don’t have to invest a significant amount of money in new correctional facilities in the Territories. I would prefer to see increased use of camps and other community-type facilities where possible. Those don’t tend to be as capital intensive. We’re hoping that the level of facilities we’re talking about here, that by 2010 we’re basically done with any big investments for quite some time.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister. I hope you’re not going to be building any other facilities in other regions. Like you say, there are camps and other facilities. There is one facility and I know there are other camps around south of the lake here, bush camps that should have more invested into those facilities. There is one up in Inuvik called the Tl'oondih Healing Society that had a camp there. I know there’s work going on up there. I think that’s been a success. I haven’t seen any reports yet from the department’s office in terms of how successful, but I think those type of wilderness camps need to be invested into the regions for a lot of reasons. I think you already heard, Mr. Minister, all the reasons why camps should be in the regions and communities.

As my colleague from Nunakput said, we’re not seeing too much investment into our communities in terms of justice and that…We have to go back. Mr. Braden also talked about going back to the smaller communities to explain to them why we are having a new $41 million courthouse in Yellowknife and we’re struggling with all these other costs. It’s hard to wrap their explanation into the people’s minds. We keep sending them for sentencing, the judge does that, and there's a high cost of living again in the region. So there are lots of complex issues and for the people in the small communities, you should just put them out somewhere. The ones that are causing a lot of trouble need to be coming to this facility, but the ones that are less risk to the community can go out to one of those camps.

I understand the need for a new courthouse; don’t get me wrong. There is a case here put by the PWS in terms of a new courthouse, but it just doesn’t seem like we’re regionalizing things. It seems like we’re coming together, but we’re not saying it. That’s why I’m having some trouble, Mr. Chairman, in terms of seeing if there are dollars going into the regions in terms of preventive justice and promoting the camps more in our regions. We haven’t heard many success stories from the camps that are existing right now. I know Mr. Dent did indicate that they’re going to do more promotion of the wilderness camps, which is a good start. But I haven’t heard enough yet in terms of how well those camps are doing or what kind of support they need. I know there was a pilot project that went up in Tl'oondih in Fort McPherson in terms of inmates going into that facility there. We haven’t heard much of that. I’m not too sure why we’re not hearing that. There is no investment going into that. I don’t know. Are there plans for more dollars next year going into it, are we going to see a huge increase? So those are the comments I have right now, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the Member knows, I’m very supportive of on-the-land camps. I agree with the Member that an important aspect of them is not just traditional knowledge, but working with the elders in the healing process. That’s absolutely essential. The Member also knows that we have to have people who want to take the programming. We’re hoping that the new approach will help us get more people into the camps.

The Member asked what the camps need. They need more people in them to be more successful because they make their money by charging us on a per diem for the inmates who are in attendance. That would make the camps more successful, too, if there were more people taking the programming.

The Member asked about Tl'oondih. I’ve shared with the Standing Committee on Social Programs and I think Members in this House in response to a question that the department felt the program that was run there about a year ago was successful. The corrections staff and inmates were all quite impressed by the calibre of the programming and the way the whole thing ran. In fact, we’re in the process of getting another intake of inmates to Tl'oondih right now, so it is something that’s being used again. We’re hoping and expecting that this group will be as successful going through there. We’re finding generally that the people who take the on-the-land programming that it is quite good for them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The on-the-land programs, specifically the Tl'oondih program, is that on a continuous basis? Are we doing it once a year or is it every six weeks? Is this a special pilot project not like the ones around this area where there are wilderness camps for inmates? Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, it’s not something that’s being done on a continuous basis at Tl'oondih. They have other programs that they run on a regular basis and they approached us when they had availability of time and the people who could work on the program and we very quickly agreed to take them up on their offer. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, has the department, in terms of talking with the people in Tl'oondih and Fort McPherson, in terms of saying that we have X amount of days, could you fill this? I think they would take that as a welcome sign. I know there are other programs they have to use to make that operation viable, for the community to make it work well. How much support is the Department of Justice giving to the camp in Tl'oondih as to the new courthouse in Yellowknife?

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that you’d find that the people who were involved with Tl'oondih and setting up the program would say that we’ve done a fair bit of work from the department to assist with that happening. In terms of an ongoing situation, it probably works best on an intermittent basis because you build up the numbers of people then who are prepared to take the programming and you have that critical mass. I think that helps, actually, make sure that you have enough people for a reasonable intake, which gives them the numbers then to justify the programming. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I left off asking questions last time, the Minister indicated that there are 49 vacant positions within Justice system-wide right at this present time. The concern is about not having the $267,000 or the $400,000 on an ongoing basis to operate the remand facility in Hay River. Approximately what’s the dollar value of those 49 vacant positions right now? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Chairman, I can’t tell you the amount of those positions that would be vacant at the moment in terms of a dollar figure. Each position has a different dollar figure. I’d have to go through position by position and take a look at what each of them was worth, then add that up. You would also have to take a look at how long they’ve been vacant for, whether or not they’re in the process of being staffed, just where it is in the system of being filled in terms of how long it has been vacant. All that information could be prepared, but it’s not something that’s done easily off the top of our heads here.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’d just like the Minister to throw a ballpark at it. Something like you did in Hay River when you came up with $76,000 per position that you were cutting at 5.5 times $76,000. Would $76,000 be kind of an average type paid position within the Justice system? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That’s an average for a correctional officer, but it would depend on where the positions were. If it’s a lawyer, it would be different; it if it was a director, it would be different; if it was a clerk, it would be different. I can’t give you an average figure off the top of my head.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Well, Mr. Chairman, would the Minister consider $60,000 per position to be a conservative estimate? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That could be high or low. I don’t know. There’s no way to say, because I don’t think we even have a listing of the positions when that report was run that were vacant. So, you know, I have no idea what the average would be. It’s possible that it’s $60,000, it’s possible that it’s $70,000, it might be $50,000 or it might be $80,000. I don’t know.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Well, for the sake of this argument, Mr. Chairman, let’s just say it’s $60,000 that’s the average for the vacant positions, times 50 vacant positions system-wide right now that’s about $3 million a year. So would the Minister concur that his department is being funded an extra $3 million right now for positions for which there are no people? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, that’s a snapshot as of one day what the vacant positions were, not what they were through the course of the year. That’s what I said; you would have to do a review of how long the positions had been vacant to come up with a number. So, no, I wouldn’t agree that it was $3 million. Just for the record, at March 31, 2004, the department’s free balance was $17,000. So it’s not as if there’s a whole bunch of room in the budget typically to manoeuvre.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, isn’t it true that within the public service in any department at any given time on any given day, at least 10 to 15 percent of the positions are vacant? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Chairman, that may be a question for Mr. Roland. It’s not one that I can answer.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland, are you prepared to answer that question?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the average vacancy within government as a whole would vary in the area of probably 12 percent.

Thank you for that, Mr. Roland. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is exactly what I said and that’s what I thought. Mr. Chairman, being a government, then any department carries that kind of a vacancy that would lead me to believe there is a little bit of manoeuvrability within the Justice budget. In fact, the 49 vacancies would, even if some of them are in the process of being staffed, if you go with the industry standard for vacancy, there is still lots of room in the Justice budget to accommodate the $267,000 for the remand centre in Hay River so that we could keep that operational until such time as we have a chance to look at the numbers that the audit indicated were a little soft. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it’s important, too, to remember that a position is shown as vacant when you run those reports, even when it’s filled by a casual. There are an awful lot of positions, particularly at the North Slave Correctional Centre, which are filled by casuals right now because of the transition period now while we’re waiting to see whether or not anybody is interested in a transfer who is affected. Those positions are still being held and filled by casuals. The positions won’t necessarily be filled immediately until we finish our human resources plan, which is something that’s been under development for a while. Again, without some detailed review, I can’t tell you whether or not we have 10 percent of the positions in Justice vacant or not. I think it’s important to remember that even when we do those runs, those 49 positions may have shown as vacant on that day even if most of them were filled with casuals. Because when a casual is filling the position, it still shows as vacant. We have been running with a very high number of casuals out of North Slave.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, let’s just say that the department’s projections are incorrect with respect to additional uptake and demand for justice services as a result of social impacts of development. Let’s just say that there’s a lot more people in the Northwest Territories and there’s a lot more crime associated with those people being here, and we, as a government, have to respond to that crime. We can’t just say oh, well, it’s not in our budget, therefore, we’re not going to deal with it. What would happen, Mr. Chairman, if the government needed money, I don’t know what they would call it, but even for a four or five-year period when there would be increased development, more people in the territory and an increase in crime? How would they finance their systems to deal with that crime? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If it turns out that more money is needed, I would have to approach the FMBS for support for a supplementary appropriation, which would come before this House. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Which is my point; if the Minister thought there was need for it, he would find the money. Correct? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Not all requests for supplementary appropriations are approved by FMBS. There is a supplementary reserve that is built into our budget and it’s fairly common for requests for supplementary funding to be rejected by the FMBS and not included in supplementary funding. I can’t speak to a situation. I think that each request is considered on its own merits. I guess it would depend on what the request was for, whether or not it would be supported. If it wasn’t supported then I’m not sure how it would be dealt with.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mrs. Groenewegen.