Debates of March 9, 2005 (day 52)

Thank you, Mr. Roland. If Members could please turn in their binders to Bill 20. I’ll ask Members if they have any general comments on Bill 20. Mr. Ramsay.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I wanted to make a few general comments on the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3 that’s before us this evening. The first one I would just like to make mention of is the size of it. It’s quite sizeable, over $16 million and I know the government is forced to expend some of this money, but it seems to be a rather large number to be dealing with, extraordinary funding for this. The one thing I really wanted to zero in on is the Dogrib Community Services Board and its operation. The fact that it’s been running and operating a deficit for the past five out of seven years and it looks like we’re in the process through this supp of bailing them out to the tune of over $2 million. I know I’ve read somewhere that they are actually going to go in there and try to do an operational review or try to identify what the problems are or what the situation is there. Obviously, Madam Chair, something is wrong if five out of seven years they have been running up sizeable deficits. Can the Minister tell us what exactly and specifically is the government doing to address the situation out there? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. A review has been done in the area of the Dogrib Health and Community Services Board, and one of the areas that was brought to our attention was that there is a chronic under funding of the board, specifically in the area of ambulance services. That was one of the main areas that this bill goes to address. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. According to the numbers that I have and other Members have, the ambulance services debt would account for $178,000 out of the $2 million. I am wondering if the Minister can clarify those numbers for me. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The numbers that we have come up with are the accumulated debt over the years that have accrued and added to that as well as some of the administration, but Minister Miltenberger may have further details that he can provide to Members.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay. I am sorry, Mr. Voytilla. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. If I could, maybe the Minister of Health and Social Services has those numbers, but I am wondering what the accumulated deficit up to March 31, 2004, in the amount of $1.289 million; what makes up that number and how do we arrive at that number? If the Minister is saying that most of that is accrued ambulance costs, then can the Minister of Health and Social Services or the Finance Minister break that number down for us? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Again the years that the accumulation started to occur was as far back as 1999. The main area again was around ambulance service provision. For example in 1999-2000 there was an accumulated deficit there of $510,000; in 2000-01, $239,000; 2001-02, $169,000; 2002-03, $152,000; and 2003-04 another $11,000, in direct regard to the services provided through ambulance. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. If the DCSB has been running up accumulated deficits since 1999, why are we just dealing with that in 2005? Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. There has been some discussion back and forth about their deficit situation and the Department of Health and Social Services did have a number of meetings with the Dogrib Community Services Board and, as a result of looking into it in more detail, this is the information that the Department of Health and Social Services has come forward with. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am quite concerned actually about this, in the fact that other boards that are out there that are operating look to this and they can see the fact that they have been running up operating deficits for a number of years and then by the stroke of a pen, through a supp, their entire accumulated deficit is gone. I think it is a pretty scary precedent to set, Madam Chairperson, that we can allow boards to operate, run up deficits and then come through a supp and get over $2 million to just wipe out the deficit. It doesn’t seem right to me, Madam Chairperson, and I would like to ask the Minister what type of precedent are we setting ourselves up for in dealing with boards that we set up? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is not setting a precedent because the government has, in the past, also provided funding for boards that have been under funded or, in this case, because of ambulance services. But there have been times in the past where the government has put in extra funding once they have worked out the details with the Department of Health and Social Services. There isn’t a precedent being set here. In this case it wasn’t a matter of poor management, it was a fact that there was under funding for a service that was being provided in this area. The Minister of Health and Social Services may have further details in that area.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The Minister of FMBS, Mr. Roland, is correct that we have provided assistance in the past. We are currently doing work with operational reviews, because there are a number of boards that are struggling with their finances as well. It is not strictly an issue of poor management.

The Dogrib board was created in 1997 and, as already indicated, one of the biggest drivers of their deficit was the fact that there was never any funding for ambulance services. Rae is the only community that doesn’t have an airport or have a way to get people to Stanton. They instituted an ambulance service that has, over time, built up a significant deficit. There have been other areas as well, as the Minister of FMBS has indicated, but we are working with other boards. For example, the Fort Smith board has a small deficit that they are working on, the Inuvik has a somewhat larger deficit that they are working on, as does Hay River. There are issues in all those areas that speak to costs that oftentimes the boards don’t control. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I guess I will take back what I said about setting precedent, because I guess every time you look around we are having to bail out somebody or other, so this shouldn’t really set a precedent then because it’s just another bail out, Madam Chairperson.

The other thing I wanted to mention; I am little bit confused about how this is playing out. On one hand you have the Minister of FMB saying that most of the deficit goes back to the fact that they weren’t funded for ambulance services. Yet because they have run up deficits in the past five out of seven years, we have gone in and done a review. What is it; if you can blame it on ambulance services and the fact that they are not funded for it, or is it some systemic problems that are in the organization that you have tried to flesh out? I am wondering if Members can actually get a copy or the review that was done of DCSB. Can we get a copy of this review and what it was meant to do? Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As the process would work, when a department comes forward for a supplementary request from FMB, if we feel there is enough information to approve, we would do that; if not, we would send them back or decline and request more information. In this particular case, the Minister did some work within the department and had a review done and the substantiation is what they brought forward. If the Minister is prepared to supply that information, then I guess we can go to Minister Miltenberger for that information.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would be happy to provide Social Programs with the background work that led us to this position.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Who else do I have on my list? The time is up for Mr. Ramsay. General comments. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Looking through the supplementary there are a lot of numbers there for fuel increase in all the departments. I want to ask the Minister, are we to expect this next year? It seems like with these numbers, someone wasn’t paying attention to the pricing of fuel in the Territories and it seems like we got caught off guard. Is this going to be the same situation for next year? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. With the area of the fuel price increases or the request for supplementary appropriation from a number of the departments is…From within FMB, when departments would come forward and they would request money up front for increasing their budgets based on the possibility of price increases, we would send them back and say come back with actuals, because the price of oil would be fluctuating too much.

This amount goes back to 2002. We feel that with this adjustment, we shouldn’t have to come back with another request for this next year. However, if the prices of fuel continue to climb, there could be that necessity to come back for further requests for that. Our policy is that we build the budgets to not adjust them for forced growth until they could have the actual numbers, because of the volatility of the price itself. We feel with the adjustments and with the budget adjustments in the budget we just brought forward, that departments should be able to live within what has been appropriated. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, also in the opening comments, the Minister has indicated, in bold-point form, $1.6 million for increases to compensation resulting from the re-evaluation of nursing and allied health care professions. Could the Minister further explain the $1.6 million increase as a result of the re-evaluation of nursing and allied health care professionals? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, the Government of the Northwest Territories went under a major review of the job classifications so a job evaluation process was initiated back in 1998. In March of 2000, a grievance was filed by the UNW on behalf of about 42 nurses that were grieving that their job descriptions did not accurately reflect the duties that they were required to perform. With the work that we had started on that basis, we did a re-evaluation of their jobs and coming forward with the results of that and making the adjustments in the pay scale system, this is the impact of that work. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Can the Minister tell me if this situation, this case is closed once and for all or are there other cases that haven’t come forward for next year in terms of further increases to compensation regarding evaluation? Is that something we may expect? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The process we are involved in with our human resource system allows for individuals to appeal the classification that they are in and there are a few outstanding yet that may impact us. It is open for members of our workforce to appeal their classification and, depending on the outcome of those appeals, it could have some impact. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It may be hard for the Minister to crystal-ball; however, he does leave some questions for me. He says a few impacts; is it under $500,000 or is it going to be another $1 million? I know it is going to be difficult for him to answer but…I’m not too sure if I can get him to commit to a number in terms of the significance of the impacts for next year for this increase in compensation for these nurses. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It would be difficult. There are about 40 positions that are still under review and it all depends on the years of service, if retroactive payments are involved, the classification that they are in, if it is a community nurse, a whole lot of things come into play. It would be pretty hard to crystal-ball the possible outcomes. Some of it might be turned down and need very little adjustment, but what we did when the first grievance was filed by the UNW in January of the last year, we went into a review that resulted in about 472 positions being re-evaluated and almost half of those were assigned higher ratings, which resulted in just about 200 positions with higher ratings and that has had an impact and we have had to bring that forward. Going forward, it would be very difficult to crystal-ball that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I appreciate the Minister’s answers. Does this open us up to any other types of workers in the Northwest Territories, in terms of this type of work that you are doing with the nurses in terms of compensation or re-evaluation? Are we open up to any other professional jobs, such as teachers or social workers that could also possibly look at a grievance process also? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The process, as it works, allows for all UNW and excluded employees to appeal, so there could be further appeals. Again, the initial job evaluation methodology that was used when the GNWT went to the Hay job evaluation process that we entered into, came up with a rating. Pay was adjusted on that basis and as a result of that there was a grievance filed on behalf of 42 nurses that triggered this going into action and the re-evaluation of the positions. Again, it is open to employees that feel that they are not getting a fair shake, they can grieve it and if successful that will have an impact on us in the future. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. One more question then I will be done with my general comments here. I will make a comment to the $4 million for additional costs that recur for services at hospitals outside the Northwest Territories. Is this only to one hospital or is this to many hospitals across Canada? This is a huge number to pay for services that possibly could be done in the Northwest Territories.

I might be getting into some areas that maybe we cannot do here in the Territories, but that is a huge increase for costs that we are paying outside the Northwest Territories. Maybe if I can get the Minister to briefly explain to me why $4 million are being spent for services outside the Territories for our people. Mahsi, Madam Chairperson.