Debates of May 10, 2007 (day 4)

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Absolutely, the Deh Cho Bridge has been on the books not only of this Legislature, but on the minds of our Northerners for many, many years. I think it’s about 50 years, even, Mr. Speaker. However, I’m proud to be the Minister that is looking after this now and it’s something that our government has really considered a priority and we’d like to move forward with it. The Member is asking for more involvement. Certainly, we’ve briefed committee before and I can commit to brief committee for further details soon, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 46-15(6): Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yes, we did receive a briefing about a month ago. However, Mr. Speaker, we don’t know what the total cost of the project is going to be; we don’t know what the tolls are going to be; the public hasn’t been involved at all. I believe we, as a government, at the very least we should go back to the stakeholders in the North Slave region where costs of goods are going to increase if the tolls on those trucks crossing that bridge are going to be in excess of $6. I’d like to know what the impact is going to be on residents in my constituency and the rest of the residents here in Yellowknife in the North Slave region. Has the Minister got that level of detail on what the increased costs will be to residents here in the North Slave? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Menicoche.

Further Return To Question 46-15(6): Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Some of the discussions that are ongoing with the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation are exactly that, are doing the financing modelling and certainly the toll is between $4 and $6 per ton. Just as an example, Mr. Speaker, $6 per ton, that’s like $250 per truckload and that’s the figure that’s currently being used in our financial modelling right now, Mr. Speaker. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 46-15(6): Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would hazard to guess that tolls will be in excess of $6. I mean it doesn’t take a mathematician to figure that out. With the project in excess of $130 million, the tolls are obviously going to have to be over $6. It was obvious from yesterday’s discussion that the government isn’t going to wait for the federal government to come in with capital dollars to put into this project. It is obvious. I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation, has the government drawn a line in the sand where it can say too much is too much? Be that either on tolls or on construction costs, on costs to the government over the 35 year period. Is there a line that has been drawn? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Menicoche.

Further Return To Question 46-15(6): Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am not too sure what the Member implies by drawing a line in the sand. If there is a line to be drawn, Mr. Speaker, we cannot wait any further for a project of this significance. However the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation is doing their negotiating on this. Our government is really involved as a P3 project. Previously, DIAND has committed up to $3 million in equity to get the project off the ground. They continue to stand by that, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 46-15(6): Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what I am hearing the Minister say today is it doesn’t matter what the project costs. If it costs 150 or 160 million, it doesn’t matter what the toll will end up being at the end of the day; $6, $7, or $8, that doesn’t matter. What matters the most to the government is that the bridge gets built. I think that is foolhardy, Mr. Speaker. I think the government has to come up with the real numbers and provide the House with the details on this project. No agreement should be signed off until Members of this House have a chance to look at it and question what the tolls are going to be and what the cost to the government is going to be over 35 years. Without doing that, we are failing the residents here, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister, when can we get a briefing with the Minister and perhaps the Premier on this project? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Menicoche.

Further Return To Question 46-15(6): Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The tolls are laid out in the Deh Cho Bridge Act. It is $6 right now plus inflationary factors as the years go on. As well, I can commit to having a briefing with the committee any time soon. But as for divulging the information to the public right now, Mr. Speaker, where sensitive negotiations are ongoing, that is something that is just not doable at this time. I can reassure that the real winners of this project are the North and northerners, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are in relation to the Member’s statement I made today and my questions are for the Minister of Finance. Can the Minister please explain his department’s reasons for restricting fuel resellers from purchasing heating fuel? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the work that we are doing within Finance around fuel tax collectors -- and there are about 30 of them in the Northwest Territories -- comes out of a result of a number of things that have occurred. One, in the tax administration of how we deal with home heating oil versus diesel, or motive diesel as we call it. In the Northwest Territories, there is no distinction between that. When a supplier purchases from a bulk supplier, there is no difference when it comes in the Northwest Territories. In fact, they can purchase home heating oil and motive diesel, but it is put in the same tankage. Our problem in the Northwest Territories is when it comes to reselling that. The changes that we are looking at are as a result of doing some of the work. We are realizing and having to focus on some of our collectors around the sale. We see a lot of purchases of home heating oil which doesn’t have any sales tax on it or fuel tax in the Northwest Territories, but motive diesel does have a fuel tax applied to it. We see a lot of purchases of home heating oil, but we are starting to look at it and question the fact is there that much home heating oil being sold or is it being sold as motive diesel. We have to follow up on that. That is what is happening here. We have to follow up on that and do better work on our end, and that includes involving some of the fuel tax collectors. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

Thank you. That is a nice way of involving our fuel tax collectors. I want to ask the Minister what consultation, if any, took place between the Minister’s department and the fuel tax collectors and resellers who are impacted by this decision? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, our normal procedures are we have contact with the fuel tax collectors around tax season or regularly as we get input. We have some good tax collectors. The status of our fuel tax collectors is good. We also have areas where we are challenged in and doing further investigation. We normally would contact them initially with written correspondence around any potential changes and inform them through that avenue. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given perhaps unforeseen impact that this restriction on purchasing heating oil will have on small businesses and customers, would the Minister agree to rescind his department’s earlier direction? I think there must be some other way of addressing this tax issue without taking such a broad sweep approach to it. I would like to ask the Minister, does this inability of fuel resellers to buy home heating oil…Am I going to have to pay as a consumer? Am I going to have to pay the extra 9.1 cents that includes the tax for my home heating fuel if they are not allowed to buy home heating fuel? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this goes on from quite a long process; it just didn’t come up overnight. We have worked with our tax collectors, those that have that status, in collecting the taxes. We don’t charge home heating oil any fuel tax. The problem is, as those that purchase the bulk supply, they buy under the home heating oil banner and, for the Northwest Territories, there is no limit to that. What happens as a result of this is the federal excise tax can kick in, because what we are saying in the Northwest Territories now is that everyone purchasing fuel would purchase it under motive diesel, which then our fuel tax arrangement falls under. But if they resell it as a home heating oil and can prove it is being sold as home heating oil, then there is a reimbursement that occurs. So there is no tax there and we are not limiting the motive diesel or home heating oil. It is at the time of reselling that we have some issues with and are following up on. Again, this is not going to be a broad stroke approach. We have looked at that and heard some of the concerns. Those that are in good standing, we are not going to enforce further rigid controls on, but those that we are having some issues with, we are going to continue to pursue.

I have heard some of the concerns and directed the department to look at meeting with those that have tax collector status to try to work out some of these concerns that are being raised. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

So is the Minister saying that, of the 30 operators that collect tax for the Northwest Territories, this only impacts a few, this is not an across the board thing? What evidence does the department or the Minister have that this fuel that was being purchased as home heating fuel was not being sold as home heating fuel? What evidence does the government have to impose such an onerous administrative burden on these businesses? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 47-15(6): Resale Of Home Heating Oil

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in some cases, yes, there are a couple of additional steps that are required because of the federal excise tax piece of it, but a number of the companies that have tax collector status on fuel sales have already done quite a thorough job. As they supply us information, it is very clear as to what happened.

Mr. Speaker, just to highlight some of the concerns, when we have problems with the administration or the processes of change an application to rebate taxes to entities that have used fuel for purposes of having a lesser tax rate than the one that is paid, it gets complicated. But sometimes these things are re-branded, as we call it, because it is all in one tank. It can be sold from one supplier to another under different headings until the final resale portion where it goes into a tank beside somebody’s home that goes into their furnace. It can be re-branded about three times. For us to track through that and to make sure that the right tax is being paid, or no tax in the case of home heating oil, is very difficult. The fact that we have a small group going out and doing these, it is a very intensive process. Hence, the commitment I now made with my department to get out there and meet with those that have tax collector status to see if we can work out some scenarios here. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions this afternoon are for the Minister of Transportation, Mr. Menicoche. It regards information that I recently heard that there are fuel shortages at the Yellowknife Airport, Mr. Speaker.

A few weeks ago, the airport in Fort Simpson encountered a similar situation due to what was understood to be an error by the fuel supplier. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the Assembly of this problem or confirm that this problem does indeed exist at the Yellowknife Airport? Does it pose any threat to reliable air transportation for the region, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Transportation, Mr. Menicoche.

Return To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I was advised earlier this week of a potential problem of a fuel shortage at the Yellowknife Airport. We have made some inquiries. There is enough fuel in the city of Yellowknife that is provided for aeronautical needs up until next Tuesday or Wednesday, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Mr. Speaker, has the department notified all of the air carriers? What contingency plans are in place to ensure uninterrupted air service should we hit that unfortunate circumstance by early next week, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Menicoche.

Further Return To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I should have added that there is good news for the Fort Providence ferry. It will be running this coming Monday. It is good for the travelling public.

---Applause

As well, the suppliers are aware of this. They do have stock waiting at Providence right now to cross on that first ferry to provide for aircraft fuel for the city of Yellowknife. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the information by the Minister. He gives us a certain extraordinary confidence that the ferry will be in the water by Monday. That is four days from now. A lot can happen in that time. I am going to return to the question that I originally asked. Has the department advised the air carriers of this problem? Are there contingency plans in place? I am not ready to accept that the ferry will resume service on Monday, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Menicoche.

Further Return To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know the department has not offered an advisory to the aircraft carriers, but there are other contingencies that are being looked at. We don’t feel it is a problem at this point. One of them, of course, is landing and using the Hay River Airport there. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Final supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister, whose responsibility is it to maintain adequate fuel supplies at the Yellowknife Airport especially at such a critical time? It is break-up season not just for the resupply to Yellowknife but all across the Northwest Territories. Fuel supplies are essential at this time of year. Whose responsibility is it to maintain this fuel supply? Just what happened to cause this potentially disastrous situation, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Menicoche.

Further Return To Question 48-15(6): Aviation Fuel Shortages At The Yellowknife Airport

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The responsibility for providing necessary fuel does not lie with the department. However, we do facilitate discussions with suppliers and users of the fuel. In this case, once again, it is the early shut down of the ice bridge that led to this. Hopefully, some of the few things that we are doing which, of course, long term is the Deh Cho Bridge. It will help alleviate these kinds of problems. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. (Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to question the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment regarding our important language and it being taught in the schools. We want to be able to teach our language in our schools. I want to ask him a question regarding that. (Translation ends)

…address my question to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. I would like to, first of all, congratulate the Minister and his department for the recent decision to allow the Athabaskan language communities to work independently on their own language curriculum. While there may be some similarities between the Gwich’in curriculum document and the Dene language curriculum, such a move recognizes distinctive language differences of these language communities, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question to Minister Dent. How much time and money was spent on the initial curriculum? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 49-15(6): Aboriginal Language Curriculum Development

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member is right; it is very important that we have good curricula in all of the regions so that aboriginal languages may be taught. What we were hoping to do is initially have something that worked like Dene Kede. Dene Kede was a framework that was developed and could be used all across the Northwest Territories. Each of the cultural groups filled in different parts of it to make sure that it was appropriate in their areas. We are finding that is not working as well as we had hoped with the curriculum that is being developed in the Gwich’in area, so we are now expanding into other areas. It was always the intention that each language would have to have some work done to develop that individual curriculum to support that language.

I can’t say here today exactly how much has been spent to date, but I can assure the Member that we are intending to work with all of the regions to ensure that there is a curriculum available in all of the regions for all of the languages.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 49-15(6): Aboriginal Language Curriculum Development