Debates of May 14, 2007 (day 6)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in favour of this motion. I think that the 700 kilowatt hours is possible with new technology and energy-efficient appliances and so on. I think that theoretically the amount of consumption should be going down. So I think the 700 as a cap is okay.

I think the way it is administered, though, with everybody’s consumption higher in the winter and lower in the summer, I would rather see it done over an annual averaging instead of just on a per month basis because relieving excess power that you’re not using in the summer and you’re ending up having to pay extra in the winter. So I would like to see it averaged over a longer period of time to make it easier for people in the small communities for their costs of living to be more affordable.

I think the territorial support program for commercial businesses just hasn’t been effective, let’s put it that way. I think that it needs to be there for small business and how are we going to create economy in these small communities and why would anybody feel motivated to start a business that would require any degree of energy if they were going to be working for the power company? So I think that we need to look again at the thresholds for the commercial power subsidy. I’m not sure what they were previously, but we need to look at it and I know that it’s intended not to be used by companies that might be part of a chain or larger companies, but those companies have some pretty serious power bills too and I will bet that those rates that they charge for their products that they sell in their store are based on some of those operating costs in those communities. So really the residents are picking that up, I would imagine too, in a very direct way. So this does need a little bit further study and a bit more consultation with the communities, but we need to do something. We’ve talked about the priority of this government in terms of positively affecting the cost of living for northerners and this is one way in which we can do it. So I fully support this motion. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. The honourable Member from Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I, too, will be voting in favour of the motion that is before us today. I think that the program itself needs to be reviewed. I also think, and I’ve made mention of this in the House, that not all communities are paying the same power rates. Those served by NUL are paying lower rates than those serviced by the Power Corporation. We need to get a better understanding of how we can get the best possible power rates into the communities as we can. That should be the onus of any review, how do we give our residents the best value on their power rates? Mr. Speaker, I think that sometimes gets lost in the equation with the Power Corporation, Mr. Speaker.

I just think, like my colleague Mrs. Groenewegen said, you wonder why there’s no small business start-ups in the regions. Well, they can’t afford to open their doors because of the power bills that they’ll be faced with and other utility costs that they’ll be faced with. There’s no bed and breakfasts, restaurants, small businesses. It’s very, very hard to start up a business. I think we have to thoroughly examine why there’s no small business in the regions, or lack thereof. I mean we’ve had economic development officers out in the regions for years, Mr. Speaker. They’re trying to serve a purpose, but if a business can’t pay their bills and the business case isn’t there to open their doors, why do we even have EDOs out in the regions? You have to start asking yourself some of these questions as well, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I do support the motion that’s before us today. Mahsi.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. To the motion. The honourable Member from Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, speak in favour of the motion. It is, indeed, high time that the premise and the thresholds that were established I think about 15 years ago now, in the original policy, that this government chose to do were set and have not been amended since then. As Members have said, yes, the cost of delivering that service across the NWT has escalated considerably, but also, Mr. Speaker, so have the demands of the modern household and the modern business. So while we’re all coping with growing energy bills, we’re also all coping with increased consumption. It is to some degree a choice, a matter of lifestyle and then part of this equation, Mr. Speaker, that comes back to us as legislators, to what degree are we going to choose to subsidize the provision of this essential service for our communities and our businesses and our residents. This argument for me, Mr. Speaker, has almost nothing to do with the actual rates or the service provided by the Power Corporation and Northland Utilities, it’s a circumstance of our day and age.

So when this report comes back to us, I think it’s going to be pretty predictable, it’s going to recommend yes, let’s increase our subsidy. How much more are we going to be prepared to do that? I think, Mr. Speaker, that will be as the motion requests or suggests, that it is something that the next Assembly will hopefully look at. Where we do now get I believe it’s in the neighbourhood of a $3.5 million dividend from the Power Corporation, this Assembly has routinely been voting about $1 million more every year from the general taxpayers' pot to fulfill that subsidy. That’s going to be about a $9 million bill. So we’re seeking right now about $5 million to provide the subsidy at the level we know.

It’s also, Mr. Speaker, I think important to recognize that a fundamental purpose of the program is we’re not out there to pay everybody’s power bill in full no matter how much power they want, it is a subsidy and in that it also has a built in intention or purpose to provide an incentive for conservation. So we should not lose sight of that. I do look forward to the examination of this, Mr. Speaker. It is absolutely essential that our communities and our residents do have a predictable and affordable source of electrical energy.

The other aspect of this that is long overdue of this motion, Mr. Speaker, is the request to review the regulatory framework for energy provision in the NWT. The Public Utilities Board operates within a certain framework and a certain mandate, but we know, Mr. Chairman, that there are many other jurisdictions that have adopted different ways of providing regulatory approvals and frameworks for what amounts to a monopolistic situation in the case of bigger utilities. The system we have now is really very cumbersome, hugely administrative, it costs all of us about $1 million a year just to have a regulatory system for electricity. That is quite plainly something that we should be able to dispense with; we should be able to replace it with something that has much more efficiency, but still gives us the assurances that electricity is being provided at a good rate.

Mr. Speaker, providing that electricity is so much more than having generators turned on and pouring diesel fuel in and making sure there’s linemen there and people to send out the bills. It’s a tremendously sophisticated type of service, it is enormously regulated. It’s probably within the top two or three that have such an extraordinarily regulatory burden. There’s new technology, new standards, safety, the environmental conditions that have come upon the energy generating sector in even the past five or 10 years are enormous. So when we’re customers, we’re paying for, as I say, a tremendously sophisticated type of service and we demand a lot from it. The consistency, the quality, the availability of power, we deem it essential. We have extensive backup systems. A lot of research and work goes into making sure that the lights are on just as much as possible. So while we have I think an extraordinarily high level of service and safe service, this does not come without cost. So we have to balance all of these things. I welcome the measures expressed in the motion, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. The honourable Member from Monfwi, Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker…(English not provided)

Mr. Speaker, I’d just like to highlight my support for this motion that’s in front of us today. I’d like to thank Mr. Yakeleya from Sahtu who presented this motion, and Mr. Pokiak as seconder. As we travel the North we hear right from the grassroots people that the power bill itself is extremely high in the small isolated communities. We just visited one of the small isolated communities over the past couple months; Ulukhaktok. When we went there and Tuktoyaktuk, we were just having discussions on the side. A person was having a $1,200 power bill for one month. That’s unreal. That’s including when we look that it is subsidized. Still, $1,200, I‘ve never seen that myself and that’s just ridiculous. I think we’re passing on a message to the department to do even more since the subsidized consumption levels have not been changed since 1988. That’s almost 20 years.

It’s a shame.

It’s a shame and we haven’t really changed that to reflect the high cost of living in the North. The gas is going up, the diesel is going up, the propane is going up, everything is going up but the subsidy stays the same. It doesn’t make sense to me at all. At the same time, the stores in the communities increase their price due to the high cost of power. It’s unfair to put that demand on the community members, when an elderly lady, granny from Nahanni, other people in the North are suffering from this. We are here to speak for them. We need to listen to the northern communities, Mr. Speaker, and, most importantly, the people of the North. That’s why we’re here; that’s why we’re elected; let’s make some changes. Mahsi.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. To the motion. The honourable Member from Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to also speak briefly in favour of the motion. There’s no question that the high cost of power and the money that the people have to pay for use of power has been, and always is, the number one issue when we visit communities in regards to how it affects cost of living. I do like the multi-pronged approach to this motion. It is calling for a review in order that we could improve our power delivery system, I guess, and the rates of it for all the communities.

Mr. Speaker, I must say I don’t necessarily agree with increasing power subsidy if it means that it encourages over usage or it does not allow us to have periodic checks on how we could do better in terms of how we use power, but I think this motion tries to address reducing consumption as well as figuring out how to help residents and small businesses where it’s possible. Mr. Speaker, I think it goes without saying how important it is for us to really focus on reducing consumption not only because of the greenhouse gas and other negative effects it has on the environment, but we need to be reminded that energy is such a precious resource. It costs a lot of money for us to make energy in the North, especially in smaller communities, and I think it’s high time that we review this.

Mr. Speaker, I know in my own house that we sort of have a little competition if every month we could use less power than the month before. For myself, I’d be really interested in having a real-time, in-home, smart metering that will tell you every day what you’re using and what power you’re using and where that comes from. I would really like to see the government figure out a way to implement this. I think it would be very useful for every household and business in the North. I think that this would also require an energy audit on most of the houses, in all houses. I think out of this has to come a revamping and increasing resources to Arctic Energy Alliance’s Home Audit Program because I think we’ll be very surprised at how much energy that we don’t need to use and we’re using in our houses to light it up and fuel it and to every window vent that’s not sealed properly or the doors that are not closing properly we’re using power a lot. We live in a very harsh environment. There’s power use that we cannot avoid, but I’m sure that there’s no one here that doubts that we could do so much more.

Also out of this has to come a very strong public awareness program about the fact that power is such a precious and valuable resource, as valuable as the air we breathe and water we have to have. I think that has to be part of the public awareness campaign.

So I would just like to close by saying that I support this motion and I would like to ask the government to take this as a call for action to review where we are at and to figure out all ways by which we could improve the way we charge for power, how we produce power, how we use power and how we could all work on reducing consumption of power. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. The honourable Member from Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Marci, Mr. Speaker. I also rise in support of this Territorial Power Subsidy Program motion due to all the reasons that we’ve already heard here today, Mr. Speaker, but also because of the fact that this program is almost 20 years old. In any subsidy program, I think, that this government initiates, should be revisited bi-annually or every five years to ensure that all the public money that we give out as a subsidy is being used in the best interest and in the smartest way that this government can work with. I think residential and commercial rates here in the NWT are definitely exorbitant and I think there’s a real big imbalance between hydro and diesel, and that’s not anything new to anybody here in the House. I would like to see more subsidies going out to the diesel communities and probably even less or no subsidies provided for hydro power and I’m sure we can strike a balance there somewhere. With the Power Corp that provides almost nine to 10 million in subsidies through the rate structure today, I think we really have to come to terms and sit down and think about how we’re spending that money and are we spending it to the best benefit of all NWT residents on a fair and equal playing field. I think this motion here would probably bring the government to the table to address that issue and I hope that this will be worked into the government’s energy plan, and that residents in Colville Lake and these very high rated communities that pay just right through the nose for power. It’s a real detriment to the small business growth in these small areas and small communities, Mr. Speaker. I hope that a revised subsidy program will encourage small business to come to the plate and say, you know, it could be a viable business, because the government spun some things around with the subsidy program and it will really help me move forward in creating small business in the small centres. I hope that this program and this motion would contribute to that success. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. To the motion. The honourable Member from Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I, too, will be supporting this motion. It was quite some time ago I talked to Mr. Yakeleya about this issue about trying to find new ways to help communities. I talked to Norman about saying, well, what if we bumped up the subsidy rate to $800, would that help? We had a bit of a discussion on that and there was some free-flowing talk about does that work, will that suit their needs. You know, we’re not 100 percent sure, but there are many ways out there to help folks. That’s kind of why I support this motion, is because it looks at different dynamics. Can we help them a little more in the winter months? We don’t have to help them so much in the summer months. I mean there are different ways we could do this.

Times have changed, Mr. Speaker. I mean let’s think about it. In 1988, a lot of homes didn’t have multiple TVs, there were no cell phones and, by the way, if you had a cell phone in 1988, your power bill wasn’t a big deal because it probably cost a fortune just to own a cell phone then. Computers, hardly anyone had computers. So really what I’m getting at is the average home has changed. The average home probably has a couple of cell phones; I wouldn’t be surprised if people have computers on all the time. So are these power rates reflective of the times? I’m not 100 percent sure and that’s an important issue to examine.

Our working poor are out there in the communities just working to pay their power bills. I mean that’s not necessarily fair. If you had to go to work every day just to keep the lights on, I mean I think that should be a signal of saying wait a minute, our power bills are so unrealistic our paycheques are just going to that and it really makes people start to wonder why are they going to work.

Mr. Speaker, businesses are troubled, you can see that, the competitiveness out there. We all know that the operation costs are all spilt down back onto the consumers. So I mean if you live in a community, it’s unrealistic that you should be paying $4 for a can of coke, or who knows what you pay in Colville Lake for a jug of milk that kids…

Twenty-five dollars.

Twenty-five dollars, according to my Sahtu colleague. The thing is, I’m not sure he’s right, but the point is if we could make things more competitive, maybe we can also help those costs from being spilt down on people and we can also help encourage them to have healthier lifestyles, Mr. Speaker. Conservation versus consumption, it’s great. Conservation is the right idea; change your light bulbs, those things all help. I’ve gone to Arctic Energy Alliance and I borrowed their metre, I plugged it in the wall, I tested my TV for a couple days, my computer to find out ways I could be more competitive, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Not everyone can afford a brand new washer and dryer to drop their consumption rates and not everyone can run out immediately and buy a brand new fridge. So competitiveness in this area is difficult. But speaking about competitiveness, if we’re trying to attract nurses to a community that they’re paying $1,000 or more for a power bill, why would they want to go there if they’re going to be paid the same amount in Yellowknife or the same amount in B.C.? I mean why would they want to go to an area that costs them two or three times more to live? So it’s about being competitive because if we can’t attract people there, they’re not going to make any money. So we sort of have to recognize the value of those types of problems.

Mr. Speaker, in closing I just want to say that although all these rates are based on Yellowknife and that’s what’s coming into question and may be part of the challenge, as a Yellowknife Member I certainly have no issue with this being examined. I have no hesitation because the fact is if we’re making it unbearable for people to live out there, I mean we have to question our values. Are we helping people? From the sounds of it, we’re probably not. So that’s why this motion says what it says, which is we have to make life more affordable for people who live out there. So I thank my colleagues Mr. Pokiak and certainly Mr. Yakeleya for bringing this forward. Mr. Yakeleya has brought this forward for three and a half years, so now that the motion is on the floor of the House it will probably be a little quiet for now on this issue until the 16th Assembly probably. So maybe we’ll get some breathing space. Very good motion, thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the motion. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, this is a recommendation to Cabinet so we will not be voting on it, but certainly there are many implications to the motion that deserves serious consideration. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. I’ll allow the mover of the motion to close the debate, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’ll be very brief. I thank my colleagues to speak their minds in terms of this motion. Mr. Speaker, as I said before, I come from a community that has a high cost of living to the people there. Mr. Speaker, the community that we recently visited, as Mr. Lafferty indicated, was Colville Lake and we talked about some of their costs in that small community and the generator there that powers the community and their power bills being $2.66.6 cents a kilowatt and their store in Colville Lake also has a huge power increase.

Mr. Speaker, the question I had for my people in Colville Lake is why is a small community as this, the numbers and the high rate and they don’t seem to understand the high cost of paying power and coming into Yellowknife where they pay in cents. If you go down to Fort Smith, they’re paying I think 11 or 12 cents a kilowatt and the smaller communities have to pay more. It doesn’t seem fair for them, the overall picture. No matter how you explain to them it just doesn’t seem fair that they’re paying $2.66 a kilowatt, while in Yellowknife they’re paying pennies for a kilowatt. Even if you do the Power Subsidy Program of the first 700, they’re still paying more. That community is isolated; its way up in the barren lands; the winter road is only in there for three months; the houses are overcrowded; the appliances in their homes are old. Mr. Speaker, people in Colville Lake said when the power generator came into Colville Lake, it would have been nice to have had NCPC talk to us about power consumption. We never really understood the use of power. They were encouraged to have their own store, so they got the Co-op. Even in that, they say it’s $10,000 a month power bill. No wonder the milk, the other things, are so high. You have to pay for it.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to know, hopefully through this review, how was the $700 picked in terms of a 700 kilowatt? Where did that rationale come from? Do the communities that are paying the high cost have input into this $700…I’m sorry, 700 kilowatts. I am sorry about this, Mr. Speaker. The motion speaks to adjusting the power rates and the power subsidy. That is something we have some control over. We are paying too much and not using enough of the kilowatts…obviously can’t be used, sorry, in the wintertime in December, January and February to help them with their power here.

Mr. Speaker, in closing, I wanted to make reference to an initiative in B.C. where they have this in-home metre reading so the communities can take the responsibility of their own power consumption. Our businesses could take ownership of the power consumption. Right now, this metre goes around and around. People don’t really understand. I don’t see anybody in our small communities going out and checking and saying we’d better slow down. There are so many numbers on there, they don’t really understand it.

So they had some mechanism in their house and they could look at it and say it will come to 700 and take some responsibility. Right now, they are just blaming government and getting on us to increase the power subsidy or do something with the power, reduce the payments. Doing business in the North is expensive in the isolated communities where we rely on diesel.

Mr. Speaker, I heard earlier about the hydro. It makes us wonder. We will have a cost of living similar to the one down south here in the Northwest Territories. Then maybe I can start looking at hydro, mini hydro or look at the hydro in our areas. We are certainly not getting much help in our communities by this government here in terms of the power subsidy. I know they spend millions and millions and it just doesn’t seem fair.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In closing, I thank the Members for the debate. I look forward to the review. I look forward to seeing the communities receiving some type of stronger initiative in terms of power rates to cut down the cost of living in the North. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, that Bill 9, Write-off of Debts Act, 2007-2008, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that Bill 10, Forgiveness of Debts Act, 2007-2008, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Deh Cho, that Bill 11, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2007, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Weledeh, that Bill 12, Public Health Act, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, that Bill 13, Change of Name Act, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Deh Cho, that Bill 14, Employment Standards Act, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Sahtu, that Bill 16, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I would like to call Committee of the Whole to order. When we left off on Friday, we had just finished the general comments on Bill 8. We were just about to go into the detail. What is the wish of the committee today? Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. The committee wishes to consider Bill 8, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2007-2008, in detail. Mahsi.

Very good. Thank you. Is committee agreed?

Agreed.

We’ll do that after a short break. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Mr. Roland, for the record, please introduce your witnesses.