Debates of May 26, 2005 (day 2)

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize two former chiefs, Gerry Cheezie and Richard Edjericon.

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Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. I’d also like to recognize two very hard-working constituency assistants in the gallery, Ms. Wendy Morgan and Ms. Debbie Mageean.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on my Member’s statement today. My question is to the Minister of Finance. On the sale of alcohol and liquor in the Northwest Territories, specifically the contracted liquor stores, how is the sale of alcohol controlled in the Northwest Territories with the contracted vendors? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I could probably get into a long response into how the contracts are controlled. Basically as they are set out there’s a prescribed number of hours, as well as a list of products that could be for sale in the Northwest Territories. Through that we would have our Liquor Commission hold the product and ship it out to the contractors throughout the Northwest Territories. The list of product that is available for sale is determined by the department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you, Minister. Are the communities somewhat consulted about how the liquor is sold when it is brought into the communities in terms of the product that is on sale? How are the communities consulted with the sale of alcohol in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first and foremost it would be through the request or our fees that are issued regarding the sale of products; so when those contracts come available. As well, from time to time the Assembly will hold public hearings on it if there are changes to the act, and in fact we are going through that process and will be going throughout the communities in the Territories and trying to get input as to the Liquor Act and its changes. But for the actual product of what is available for sale, I can’t recall myself in my time as Minister of Finance, if in fact there was some survey done on the product. So I would have to give that information at a later time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to ask Minister Roland if he would consider acting on the ban of overproof alcohol in the Northwest Territories, especially in the Sahtu region where there is considerably high concern in two of my communities, and acting on it right away even pending the review of the Liquor Act. This is an urgent problem in the Sahtu region, Mr. Speaker, and we don’t need to wait for consultants to tell us this. Would the Minister consider acting right away on this request? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in speaking to the Member and the issue that he has raised about the sale of overproof products in the stores throughout the Northwest Territories, that’s something I will take into serious consideration. There may be a number of ways in trying to deal with this, but I will look at that and work with the Member on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister consider looking at a controlled ban on the sale of overproof alcohol in the Northwest Territories, and look at some of the problems that are caused by the sale of overproof alcohol in our communities? Would he consider an all out ban once and for all in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 12-15(4): Control Of NWT Liquor Sales

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I would consider that as we look at the matter of our products that we have for sale in the Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions this afternoon are for the Minister of Health and Social Services on the issue of the decision to relocate the Territorial Treatment Centre from Yellowknife. Mr. Speaker, the process of taking ideas or proposals from concept or potential into reality is normally quite an extensive and sometimes an even prolonged process in this Assembly. That’s one of the strengths, sometimes one of the weaknesses of consensus. But this is not a partisan House, Mr. Speaker, this is a consensus House where the minority government has to work with the majority of Members on this side to help make those tough decisions in the best interests of everyone possible. My question, Mr. Speaker, is after all the commotion that this House went through in the last session where the communities of Inuvik and Hay River were affected by the closure of remand centres and the Dene K’onia centre, has this government not learned anything about how sensitive and how critical a matter it is to work with MLAs on this side when we’re talking about moving jobs and moving public services from one community to another? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as an MLA from one of the smaller communities, I am very, very sensitive to the issue of government resources in communities and how they are spread out across the North, including the capital and all of the other small communities, and how important those resources are, especially in the smaller communities. Have we learned anything through the last session? Yes, we have. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Then if something has been learned, how, Mr. Speaker, has that been manifested in this lightning-quick decision to move the treatment centre without bringing, as my colleague yesterday, the Member for Kam Lake, Dave Ramsay, said, where is the business plan? How are we to know what is going to be the effect on workers and on staff and on families? If the government has learned something, we’re not seeing it here, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I indicated yesterday and made a commitment to the Member for Kam Lake that we would pull together the information that we’ve been looking at to date. I also indicated in this House that the detail of this transition is going to take 18 months or so to be complete with the part of the business plan process that is now currently underway for the coming fiscal year. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Then in that business planning process, Mr. Speaker, what is going to be the ability of us as MLAs to work with our constituents, to represent our people and have a real tangible impact and effect on how that business plan is going to roll out and affect their families, their futures and their careers? I’m asking for some meaningful input here and I don’t know that I’m going to get it. I’m really hearing done deal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as the Member indicated, we operate on this side of the House in a perennial minority situation, and that point is brought home to us time and time again. It’s something I’m very, very cognitive of, and we’re all very sensitive to the need to work in a consensus style with all the MLAs, both those from Yellowknife and those from outside Yellowknife, but as a collective for the common good. We intend to do that. The business plan will lay out the detail and we’re always interested and, once again, sensitive in trying to accommodate issues raised in committee on issues that are falling out of what’s being proposed in the business plan. In this case, that situation will once again hold true. We will work to make sure that this process is governed in the best way possible with us being as sensitive to the issues that involve staff as possible, and to the children, once again, ensuring that there is going to be a high quality program set up in Hay River that will provide the service on a territorial basis for all children in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Mr. Speaker, one of the aspects that have been brought to light about this potential move -- and this is not a slight at all against the good people of Hay River -- are certain levels of support and treatment and professional care that are not established in Hay River. Is this business plan going to address the needs that these children have for as full a spectrum as possible of care, and how is that going to be established? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Miltenberger.

Further Return To Question 13-15(4): Relocation Of The Territorial Treatment Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the service that will be provided will be on par with what is currently here. If there are services that are required that aren’t accessible as they are possibly in Yellowknife five minutes away, they’ll be accessible in Hay River 35 or 40 minutes away by plane. We have folks that travel, we have other territorial facilities across the North that provide service to all the people of the Northwest Territories and this program will be no different, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Brendan Bell. In my Member’s statement today I talked about the decision that the government proceeded with to close the remand unit at the SMCC in Hay River. This was given a lot of dialogue in the last Assembly and the last budget session and, as the Minister knows, there was a unanimous motion passed to support this. Unfortunately, it was dealt with in a way that the closure proceeded. But that being the case, Mr. Speaker, that’s kind of history now; but I still have questions outstanding with respect to numbers, with respect to costs. We did secure an audit report, which indicated that the analysis for the cost saving was not done at an in-depth level and it was not that rigorous, so I would like some of these things revisited. I would like to know if the Minister of Justice would provide me with a commitment today that these outstanding issues could still be addressed going forward to ensure that from an operations point of view it’s still in the interests of the service being provided to have the remand centre in Hay River closed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Bell.

Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it’s a very important question, and I want to reiterate that this closure was done as an economizing measure. We felt that in terms of efficiency, in terms of making the best use of our funds, we could adequately handle remand prisoners in the facility and the general population if they weren’t of high risk, and high risk inmates could be transferred to the North Slave facility. But there is no doubt that this was based on the assumption that we could actually save money doing it. Admittedly, it’s not a program enhancement. If money were not an object, we would not have proposed this. So I’m certainly willing to look at this one year forward. I have directed my department to keep a running account of the costs at the facility. In addition, I’ve asked to make sure the RCMP can account for the costs that they are incurring. I am concerned about some of the points that the Member from Hay River has raised about her feeling in terms of costs to RCMP budgets. If RCMP budgets have been required to go up because of this, there’s no doubt that at some point it would be passed on to this government.

So I will look at this over the course of the year, and if in fact we aren’t saving the money, then we have to have some reconciliation of that. But I’m prepared to come back and talk about why we have met our targets or why we haven’t and have a very frank discussion with the Members opposite. I think it’s very important and we’ll be as open and transparent about this as we should be. I think that that’s a commitment that I can make here today and I am prepared to review it one year out. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the projected cost savings of $400,000; the audit report indicated that with no persons leaving and no positions lost through attrition, that in fact the savings were only about $267,000. With the number of $267,000 in mind and given our budget planning process one year out unfortunately would mean that there would be no reinstatement of services until the following fiscal year. Would the Minister agree to an interim evaluation? If these numbers are all being tracked now, would he agree to an interim look at this in six months so that if the savings are not being realized and it is not working out as anticipated, that in fact this could be built back into the budget planning process which would commence in about six months from now? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well the business planning process is well underway now, departments are working on it and the reinstatement of the remand centre has not been contemplated, but I am prepared to track this and account for the savings and projected savings going forward with committee. I can come back to committee periodically throughout the year. There is nothing stopping us at the end of the year, should we determine that we really aren’t saving any money this way and it’s become an increased burden on the system and RCMP budgets. I say hypothetically at this point because I don’t know, Mr. Speaker, but if that in fact is the case, I’m prepared to revisit it. I think we made the decision because we believed that we would save money, and I still believe that, but I’m prepared to come back and analyze that. If we’re wrong, we’re prepared to reverse that decision, but I want to go forward and give this the time.

We do acknowledge that attrition was going to be required to save some of the money. So we know that no full-time employees have lost their jobs. There has been a reduction in overtime and casual use, but I will come back periodically and work with committee and talk about the actual savings that we’ve seen to date and the projected savings going forward. I don’t want the Member to feel that this is gone or we’ve missed the window because of the business planning process. That isn’t the case and I can always go back to Cabinet at any time if in fact we aren’t saving the money. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one thing I was never really clear about or assured of was in fact that when the change in operations was proposed that the Harrington Report, as it’s called, and the coroner’s report as a result of the suicide that took place in cells had been taken into account in terms of the operation changes, because I think the staffing of the remand centre, the way it was, was directly precipitated by those two reports. Can the Minister speak as to whether or not those things were taken into account when these changes were proposed? If they weren’t, would he commit to again evaluating the service against those two reports? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I believe they were taken into account and I know it’s of utmost importance to the department that inmates are safe in the facility, inmates in the general population are not put at risk because of some of the folks in remand and vice versa. I know that an assessment is done for people coming into remand. If they are deemed to be high risk, then they’re transported to the North Slave Correctional Centre. But I’ll go back to the department and ensure that in fact the coroner’s inquest and that report were considered. That’s another thing I can come back to committee and talk about, but at this point I do believe they were incorporated, but I’ll certainly verify that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister has made a commitment to work with committee. Unfortunately, I’m not on the committee that oversees his department so I would like a commitment from the Minister that he would allow me to be involved in setting those items which will be assessed and identified in terms of setting the benchmark with respect to savings. I want to make sure that every potential impact in terms of cost is included in that comparison when it’s done. Would the Minister commit to that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit