Debates of May 26, 2005 (day 2)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Brendan Bell. In my Member’s statement today I talked about the decision that the government proceeded with to close the remand unit at the SMCC in Hay River. This was given a lot of dialogue in the last Assembly and the last budget session and, as the Minister knows, there was a unanimous motion passed to support this. Unfortunately, it was dealt with in a way that the closure proceeded. But that being the case, Mr. Speaker, that’s kind of history now; but I still have questions outstanding with respect to numbers, with respect to costs. We did secure an audit report, which indicated that the analysis for the cost saving was not done at an in-depth level and it was not that rigorous, so I would like some of these things revisited. I would like to know if the Minister of Justice would provide me with a commitment today that these outstanding issues could still be addressed going forward to ensure that from an operations point of view it’s still in the interests of the service being provided to have the remand centre in Hay River closed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Bell.

Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it’s a very important question, and I want to reiterate that this closure was done as an economizing measure. We felt that in terms of efficiency, in terms of making the best use of our funds, we could adequately handle remand prisoners in the facility and the general population if they weren’t of high risk, and high risk inmates could be transferred to the North Slave facility. But there is no doubt that this was based on the assumption that we could actually save money doing it. Admittedly, it’s not a program enhancement. If money were not an object, we would not have proposed this. So I’m certainly willing to look at this one year forward. I have directed my department to keep a running account of the costs at the facility. In addition, I’ve asked to make sure the RCMP can account for the costs that they are incurring. I am concerned about some of the points that the Member from Hay River has raised about her feeling in terms of costs to RCMP budgets. If RCMP budgets have been required to go up because of this, there’s no doubt that at some point it would be passed on to this government.

So I will look at this over the course of the year, and if in fact we aren’t saving the money, then we have to have some reconciliation of that. But I’m prepared to come back and talk about why we have met our targets or why we haven’t and have a very frank discussion with the Members opposite. I think it’s very important and we’ll be as open and transparent about this as we should be. I think that that’s a commitment that I can make here today and I am prepared to review it one year out. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the projected cost savings of $400,000; the audit report indicated that with no persons leaving and no positions lost through attrition, that in fact the savings were only about $267,000. With the number of $267,000 in mind and given our budget planning process one year out unfortunately would mean that there would be no reinstatement of services until the following fiscal year. Would the Minister agree to an interim evaluation? If these numbers are all being tracked now, would he agree to an interim look at this in six months so that if the savings are not being realized and it is not working out as anticipated, that in fact this could be built back into the budget planning process which would commence in about six months from now? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well the business planning process is well underway now, departments are working on it and the reinstatement of the remand centre has not been contemplated, but I am prepared to track this and account for the savings and projected savings going forward with committee. I can come back to committee periodically throughout the year. There is nothing stopping us at the end of the year, should we determine that we really aren’t saving any money this way and it’s become an increased burden on the system and RCMP budgets. I say hypothetically at this point because I don’t know, Mr. Speaker, but if that in fact is the case, I’m prepared to revisit it. I think we made the decision because we believed that we would save money, and I still believe that, but I’m prepared to come back and analyze that. If we’re wrong, we’re prepared to reverse that decision, but I want to go forward and give this the time.

We do acknowledge that attrition was going to be required to save some of the money. So we know that no full-time employees have lost their jobs. There has been a reduction in overtime and casual use, but I will come back periodically and work with committee and talk about the actual savings that we’ve seen to date and the projected savings going forward. I don’t want the Member to feel that this is gone or we’ve missed the window because of the business planning process. That isn’t the case and I can always go back to Cabinet at any time if in fact we aren’t saving the money. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one thing I was never really clear about or assured of was in fact that when the change in operations was proposed that the Harrington Report, as it’s called, and the coroner’s report as a result of the suicide that took place in cells had been taken into account in terms of the operation changes, because I think the staffing of the remand centre, the way it was, was directly precipitated by those two reports. Can the Minister speak as to whether or not those things were taken into account when these changes were proposed? If they weren’t, would he commit to again evaluating the service against those two reports? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I believe they were taken into account and I know it’s of utmost importance to the department that inmates are safe in the facility, inmates in the general population are not put at risk because of some of the folks in remand and vice versa. I know that an assessment is done for people coming into remand. If they are deemed to be high risk, then they’re transported to the North Slave Correctional Centre. But I’ll go back to the department and ensure that in fact the coroner’s inquest and that report were considered. That’s another thing I can come back to committee and talk about, but at this point I do believe they were incorporated, but I’ll certainly verify that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister has made a commitment to work with committee. Unfortunately, I’m not on the committee that oversees his department so I would like a commitment from the Minister that he would allow me to be involved in setting those items which will be assessed and identified in terms of setting the benchmark with respect to savings. I want to make sure that every potential impact in terms of cost is included in that comparison when it’s done. Would the Minister commit to that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 14-15(4): Closure Of The South Slave Correctional Centre Remand Unit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My apologies; that had slipped my mind. I will certainly commit to sitting down with the Member to talk about methodology for this review as we go forward. I think that’s very important and I’m sure the committee would not have objections to the Member sitting in on any committee discussions we have. But absent that, I’m certainly prepared to have individual discussions with the Member. Thank you.