Debates of May 27, 2004 (day 14)

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do appreciate the Minister’s comments. I know it’s a tough balancing act that he finds himself in and it’s not an enviable position. I know he was on this side of the House in the last government and he does know what it’s like, so I do appreciate the time he’s spending on this. I mentioned this before but the government really has to learn how to say no, no to some of these groups that come forward. During the last sitting of this House, we were discussing the early childhood funding and that was almost $1 million. I remember the Minister standing up saying we couldn’t access the additional money that we got from Ottawa. It wasn’t going to happen and lo and behold, a few months later, we are going to spend close to $1 million on this early childhood program. I am just wondering, Mr. Chairman, when does no mean no? Maybe the Minister can fill me in on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as the process is when the department feels they are running a program that doesn’t have the required resources within that department, they would bring a bill forward and it would, in the sense of money bills or requests for more money, come to FMB, which I am Chair of. We would discuss that request at that table and have a vote on it. If a department is able to justify in the eyes of FMB as a whole, the support would be there to proceed and we would identify where we would come up with those monies. So there is a process. The initial stage when there was a request for money, I would inform them that we are not in a position to say yes to that request at that time and I believe the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, referenced that he would be looking at that initiative and talking with his Cabinet colleagues. In this case, obviously he garnered their support and it has come forward on that basis. So it is still a time of debate that requires decisions to be made.

We have, as chairman of the FMB, been tougher on those requests that have been coming forward. We only have a $20 million supplementary reserve and that’s meant for unforeseen emergencies and we are sending the message back that a lot of times the requests that are being made need to go into the business planning process. Members, again, when we get to that process, will be much more involved. I have just updated Members as to what we would be looking to develop as information and going forward on the basis of further reductions. So I continue to work with Members in that area. Ultimately my goal is to try to come up with a balance that we can operate as a government, still provide an adequate level of service and not burden the taxpayer significantly in the Northwest Territories, but unfortunately there are times when we have to. It wasn’t my goal in becoming Finance Minister to lead the charge on taxes, but it seems like that is the situation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister. The issue I have here goes back to the federal government in terms of their revenue resource sharing, the money they take out of the Northwest Territories. It seems that we, as residents of the Northwest Territories, always pay for it. We know that doing business in the North, the cost is extremely high in isolated communities such as my region. Even to attract good workers, you have to do extra initiatives to hold positions of workers in our communities. Also the programs that are dear to people’s hearts are sometimes being called into question because of the amount of dollars it costs to do business in our communities. They get quite upset when we see some of the programs that have been cut and they question the government and myself as MLA, asking this government to look at some programs and consider saving them. The one question they have asked me often is the amount of bureaucrats we have with this government. We cut back and look at them again to see where some of those dollars can be pumped into the regions here. The one support I have and I commend the Minister on is the payroll, the fly-in/fly-out. That’s one of the things they…(inaudible)…when I say this is something this government will look at because they think it’s about time they pay for doing business in the Northwest Territories. We are going to stay here, Mr. Chairman. We pay the consequences. Our workers and the companies that come and do business in the Northwest Territories are going to be here for a couple of years and then they leave.

An example is the pipeline. We are going to have some major work done down the valley. People are going to be using our resources to do the work here. So that’s something that I know in my region they support. Also the income tax increase for the rich. As my honourable colleague, Mr. Ramsay, said, the high income earners are supporting the low income people due to the high cost of living in the small communities. At the end of the day, we look at this and all the discussion on this complex issue of finance formulas with the federal government and with ourselves with income tax. The people want to know if they are increasing their quality of living in the communities. We really want to know they are getting a good deal from this government to increase the cost of living. That’s what they look at at the end of the day. They can breeze through the Members’ presentations, but at the end of the day when they go home, they say are we going to have good services and is our cost of living is going to be looked after. What happens to people who come to our regions, work for two weeks and fly out? Are they paying their dues? This is the Northwest Territories.

We have rich resources here. My question to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is what type of strategy in terms of working with the federal government and showing that these dollars stay here and they take a lot of dollars out of here, and we are paying for it? I think we are more than a territory. I think we can come up with some creative solutions. I knew when we were coming to this election, if I was successful in getting in as MLA, we would come to a debt wall and the high cost of living and the issues in front of us. How do we deal with it? I want to show the constituents back in the Sahtu that their quality of living is being taken care of and we can ensure that we are maintaining some of the programs. If anything is going to be cut, for goodness sakes don’t cut the programs. Those are serving a lot of people.

I think there have been some tough challenges by the Minister to look at departments and positions. I don’t envy you being in that position, Mr. Minister, but the people in the communities are the ones who I am more concerned with. That is my comment to the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of avenues we continue to work on, not only in our own sources of revenue, but today is the final piece of that package. We continue to work with our partners, with aboriginal governments in the Northwest Territories, when we go to Ottawa and advance the royalty revenue and discussions that are ongoing and try to ensure that the messages goes out that we are, in fact, doing the best we can with what we have. If we are going to be a positive asset to Canada, then the federal government needs to recognize that there needs to be more revenue required to be left in the Northwest Territories, so we can become a positive asset for Canada and not just continually going down hat in hand. So that work is ongoing. As a government, we must look at all avenues we have available to us. If, for example, that area doesn’t work out, we have to look at all other areas, and that comes back to the idea of own source revenues or reduction of programs and services. If you look at the increase that has occurred, increases have been in the area of frontline workers over the last number of years. We’ve supplied that information in the area of nursing, in the area of doctors’ support, social workers, probation officers and so on. Those requirements are there and when you add to that workforce, it adds to the requirement for more funds from the Government of the Northwest Territories. So we’ve been trying to continue that level of programs and services, but at the same time it’s prudent on government to look at its way of doing business to ensure we are not spending the money paid to us by taxpayers, not only in the Northwest Territories but in Canada to let them know that we are doing it wisely and spending the money prudently. So we try to come up with a proper balance. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, I do support the initiatives that the Minister is putting forward to this committee here. I guess I am looking at some other initiatives that we will be discussing later on. However, I would just like to state for the record that I have spoken to the people in the Sahtu and they said that they give their support to these two initiatives that are coming forward.

The other one is in some way, I go back to looking at some of the communities and the departments, they can use some real financial planning for programs and services. It goes a long way. One of my constituents mentioned that they managed to have some financial planning workshops in the region for the people. We are going to be coming into some dollars and cents and they are also concerned. It can be done. For the number of people and the potential revenue we may have coming to the Government of the Northwest Territories, one good move might be to consider some financial planning in the regions. We are optimistic. This is a tough time. Go steady and go forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Yakeleya has touched on an area that I have referenced on my own in the past when we see a large development happening in communities and the cash flow increases. I think it would be good that we could work with communities, either through the Aurora College process and establish programs, or work with the resource companies themselves when they hire employees to do a part of that. I think there are avenues we can look at and try to encourage that type of service to be available.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. General comments. What is the wish of the committee?

Clause by clause.

Clause by clause. Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Payroll Tax Act, 1993 and the Income Tax Act. We will stand down consideration of the clauses of the bill and consider the schedule of the bill first. Schedule A.

Agreed.

Page 2, amendments to the Payroll Tax Act, 1993.

Agreed.

Let’s go back to page 1, Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Payroll Tax Act, 1993 and the Income Tax Act, clause 1.

Agreed.

Clause 2.

Agreed.

Page 3, Schedule B, amendments to the Income Tax Act.

Agreed.

Refer back to page 1 again, Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Payroll Tax Act, 1993 and the Income Tax Act, clause 1.

Agreed.

Bill as a whole.

Agreed.

Does the committee agree that Bill 6 is ready for third reading?

Agreed.

Bill 6 is now ready for third reading. At this time, I would like to thank Mr. Roland and his staff for coming in for the presentation. We hope to see you again some time.

---Laughter

Does the committee agree that consideration of Committee Report 5-15(3) is also concluded?

Agreed.

Thank you. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Braden.

Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.

We have a motion to report progress, but at the present time I don't recognize a quorum so I'll have to press our little button here, the bells, to get a quorum.

---Ringing of Bells

Thank you. I call the committee back to order. We do have a quorum now. There is a motion to report progress. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will rise to report progress. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Payroll Tax Act, 1993 and the Income Tax Act, and Committee Report 5-15(3), and would like to report that Committee Report 5-15(3) is concluded and that Bill 6 is ready for third reading. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with.

The motion is in order. Do I have a seconder for that? Mr. Yakeleya.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of the AOC committee at adjournment today, and another meeting of the AOC committee tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.

Orders of the day for Friday, May 27, 2004, at 10:00 a.m.:

Prayer

Ministers' Statements

Members' Statements

Returns to Oral Questions

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Oral Questions

Written Questions

Returns to Written Questions

Replies to Opening Address

Petitions

Reports of Standing and Special Committees

Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

Tabling of Documents

Notices of Motion

Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills

Motions

First Reading of Bills

Second Reading of Bills

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Bill 5, Tlicho Community Government Act

- Committee Report 4-15(3), Report on the Review of Bill 5, Tlicho Community Government Act

Report of Committee of the Whole

Third Reading of Bills

- Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Payroll Tax Act,

1993 and the Income Tax Act

Orders of the Day

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until Friday, May 28, 2004, at 10:00 a.m.

---ADJOURNMENT

The House adjourned at 5:38 p.m.