Debates of May 27, 2005 (day 3)

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as we all know, the program is based on the amount of money that we do have in the pot and the number of applications you have received. On that basis, it depends on the amount of applications. Yes, we have turned people down time and again. That’s why people continue to go back year after year to reapply on these programs, because there is only so much money in the pot. If the Member would like to ensure that they increase the budget next year for this program so we can assist more people, I think that is the way we can solve this problem. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, as the lead Minister of emergency services, what is the government doing to get the people in Fort Good Hope back into their homes and back to their lives prior to the flood as soon as possible? What is the Minister doing? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod.

Return To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I guess I should first of all commend the community of Fort Good Hope for all of their efforts and their ability to work together during this real tense time this spring, when we were experiencing some severe flooding in that community. I would also like to commend the MLA for that riding for all of his good work in keeping the communications line open during that difficult time.

Madam Speaker, we are, as the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, working with a number of other departments within this government to ensure that there is a smooth effort or action plan undertaken to allow people to return to a normal routine in their lives. We have had our emergency management coordinator in the community for several days over this past week to do an assessment of where and how things can be dealt with. We have assessed that the damage is well over $1 million in the community. That does not include some of the damage that has happened to some of the houses for the NWT Housing Corporation.

We have had, along with our coordinator, an insurance adjuster in the community doing an assessment, and we have also contracted a disaster services agency from Yellowknife to help us put together an action plan and start doing some of the recovery. We have already seen the Fort Good Hope Band Council do a lot of the work that is required in terms of cleanup. They have cleaned up some of the contaminated public areas and worked on some of the flooded-out roads. We are doing everything in our power to ensure that this is done quickly. We have done a lot of work to put together an action plan; we have a lot of people in the communities from the government. I did a quick count and we have at least 25 people from the different departments in this government do their assessments and go into the community and look at their responsibilities. We are trying to package all that up and have the people back in their houses and have the seniors' home up and running.

The Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation informs me that the renovations to the seniors' home is 95 percent complete, so that is something that we could look at opening fairly quickly, depending if it passes the inspections that are required. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Minister. That is good news for the people back in Fort Good Hope. I also wanted to say congratulations to the Ministers and the departments for how they coordinated this situation in Fort Good Hope. As part of the coordination, I want to ask the Minister of MACA, would he commit to looking at the emergency measures policy in terms of if there is a similar type of situation in the NWT? They had some hiccups of the local emergency measures and the post-flood situation, and the department needs to look at the emergency measures guidelines and policies and a tightening up of the coordination by the departments. Would the Minister commit to reviewing the emergency measures with the community of Fort Good Hope on similar situations that may happen in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will certainly commit to doing that. We do review our emergency measures policy on a regular basis. Each community has emergency measures plans, however, there is a time for updating the plans and for reviewing the plans with the community, especially in the areas where there are changes in council. We will commit to reviewing the emergency measures policy and the plans and meet with the communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, part of the flood damages are people who have cabins, who have houses, equipment and supplies on the land. Would the Minister commit to the people of Fort Good Hope and to the House here that he will have some discussions with ITI and the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources regarding compensation for the loss of the cabins and skidoos of the trappers? I understand the policy on natural disasters per occurrence is about a $4,500 maximum for compensation. Would they have some discussion as to how they could properly compensate the cabin owners who have lost some of their personal belongings and property? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I cannot speak for the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, however, my information tells me that there has been some analysis done in that area. I believe there was a helicopter survey done and there has been some assessment already conducted in the area of damages to the cabins. I believe there is a trapper's compensation program that can be accessed through this program. I will take that request to the appropriate Ministers and have them respond accordingly. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the meetings with the Fort Good Hope people and the people who were affected by the flood shed a new light on the effects of the disaster by the Mackenzie River. The people really want to see the highest level of government in the community of Fort Good Hope. I ask the Minister of MACA how soon could he and possibly some other Ministers arrange a trip into Fort Good Hope to talk to the people, so that they have some degree of comfort by the Ministers that this government does have a heart and they do care? They will be happy to see the Ministers in Fort Good Hope. Mahsi, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Further Return To Question 31-15(4): Assistance To Fort Good Hope Flood Victims

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I don't know how many times I have to stand up in this House and assure the Member that I do have a heart and I do care.

Madam Speaker, the sense of urgency for the Fort Good Hope flood has probably passed. There is some consideration from the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation to see if he can go into the community this weekend, providing that his travel schedule allows it. The Member of Parliament, Ethel Blondin-Andrew, has contacted me and is in the community today; she left this morning. Our session schedule doesn't allow me to get into the community. We did try to go to Fort Good Hope. We had scheduled a trip last Saturday with many of our staff and all the people involved around the issue of the flood. We waited at the airport for some period of time to fly out of here, however, the weather was not cooperating and we could not get in. We checked again in the afternoon and the planes still were not allowed to fly into that area, so we had to cancel out. We really apologize for that.

We are in contact with the chief of the community; we are talking with the band council and the SAO. There are a number of issues that are coming forward that are not really directly related to the flood, so we want to try to compile an agenda and set up a schedule to get into the community. We really want to have a sit-down, face-to-face meeting to talk about some of the issues that are coming forward as a result of this flood to see if there are any problems with the whole process. Of course, I had made earlier commitments to go into Colville Lake, so we are trying to see if we can fit that in also. This will probably be my sixth or seventh trip into the Sahtu, so I am getting to know the area fairly well. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My questions this morning are for the Honourable Brendan Bell in his capacity as Minister of Investment, Tourism and Industry. It might be the other way around, but I hope that’s clear enough. Madam Speaker, I want to follow up on the statement I made earlier on the diamond mining industry and its impact or potential lack of impact on our long-term sustainable economy here. Madam Speaker, we have long complained about resource industries being fly-in/fly-out industries. Here, unfortunately, we have another manifestation of this with Diavik’s decision and it’s quite allowable, I would underline, through the socioeconomic agreement, within the first four years of the agreement, to fly workers in from outside of the NWT at no cost. Madam Speaker, how are we to grow our economy if we allow ourselves to continue to be treated as any other remote outpost that multinationals can fly-in/fly-out either workers or product? How can we continue to grow if this is the way we continue to regard ourselves? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Mr. Bell.

Return To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s a difficult issue for us to address, but we know what we need to do is get more northerners trained, especially for the jobs that require a high level of expertise. The fact of the matter at that specific mine is 70 percent of their workforce -- I think it’s 72 percent, in fact -- are northerners. The other 30 percent currently come from the South. Had we had that expertise locally available in the North, there would be no one coming in from the South. That is our goal. That’s why we have programs set up like the ASEP program that the Minister of Education has been working diligently on with industry and with communities. I think that’s the future, Madam Speaker. The future is to get our people trained to take advantage of the opportunities that are there for them. I don’t believe the mine has any interest in flying people in from the South unless they absolutely need to. It’s more expensive. As I said earlier and yesterday to the questions, people who live and work in the North are much more likely to stay at those jobs. The cost of turnover is huge for mines. When you have people trained and prepared to stay, the longer they stay, the less you have to train replacements. So they have a vested interest in using northerners and I am sure if they could use 100 percent northerners, they would. It’s up to us as government and northerners to get our people trained to take advantage of those opportunities. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Those are all very good and very valid explanations, part of the foundation of our understanding. Certainly the mines collectively deserve congratulations and compliments for the investment they have made in doing that. It is truly a partnership. It continues to be a source of concern that we are seeing this trend, unfortunately, come into a reality. Madam Speaker, the cost of living and separation from friends and relatives is one of the main reasons that southern workers say they cannot move to the Northwest Territories. Now we can’t do much about the distance and the separation from friends and relatives, but we can about the cost of living. What is the GNWT doing to help address the high and already getting higher cost of living here in Yellowknife? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s a very comprehensive and broad response required to that difficult question. It is a priority of the government to start to address the cost of living in the North, and it’s one that cuts across many departments and many aspects of life in the North. Obviously we need to make more land available for housing developments. We need to pursue opportunities like hydro to make sure that the cost of electricity across the North isn’t so onerous. There are many things that we need to do. We need to focus as a government on a number of these issues, but there is no denying that in an overheated economy, wage inflation pressures drive the cost, because it’s very competitive, of labour up. It’s more and more expensive for those who provide services to employ people to carry out those services. So the effect is one of compounding the problem. I suppose many people would say it’s a good problem to have because the economy is so hot, but we do know there are issues we need to be able to address. I don’t think government can do it on its own, Madam Speaker, but we certainly can play a significant role. That is part of our priority and strategy as a government. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing that rather far-ranging question and for the Minister’s answer. I will come back to the theme of workers choosing not to live in the Northwest Territories. There is a concern in the city, Madam Speaker, that workers who are now residents of the Northwest Territories may look at this and say if I can get my way paid from Edmonton, I am going to move to Edmonton. I get the big salary, I enjoy the lower cost of living, I am closer to friends and relatives and other kinds of amenities. What kind of protections are there in the socioeconomic agreements, Madam Speaker, that will prevent or deter workers from actually retreating and leaving the Northwest Territories?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Madam Speaker, in much of this discussion, we tend to want to focus on the hypothetical, the what-ifs. We don’t know what’s going to happen and obviously we can’t chain people up and force them to work or force them to live somewhere. We have to do our best to make sure that it is an environment that people want to live in; that’s what we are here to do. We are here to improve life, reduce the cost of living and make sure this is the best place in the country to live. I believe it is. Will some people want to move south because they have now seen a window? I don’t know. I guess hypothetically that is the case. The mines do provide the charters coming north. They are aware of who is on these charters, but they can’t insist that because you have chosen to move south for whatever reason that you can no longer be employed at the mine. I hazard a guess that they would run afoul of provisions of the Charter of Rights by suggesting that. So I think it’s important for us to focus on what we can improve in the North, instead of looking at protectionist measures and trying to project the absolute worst-case scenario. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Final supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Supplementary To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister is right; we have to pursue an incentive and an attractive environment to work and live in, but I will go back to what I started with. The North has had such a history of fly-in/fly-out resource development and we have worked so hard to counter that. The agreements that we put in place under considerable pressure, Madam Speaker, to get the diamond companies to comply with our desire to leave some of the product here so we could work on it is one example of how we have worked so hard to make this happen. The concerns I raise about workers now potentially making these kinds of choices is a signal that we have to do as much as we can to make this an attractive environment. So I would come back and ask the Minister what steps he is taking with Diavik to constructively reverse the opportunity they’ve made, and not just wait for another two years before this agreement comes up. What steps are we taking right now to help Diavik attract and keep workers living in the North? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Bell.

Further Return To Question 32-15(4): Impact Of New Diavik Travel Policy

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have met with the company, Diavik specifically, a couple of times recently about this. We’ve had discussions around training for the most part because that really is the answer here, is to make sure that programs like ASEP are up and running, and are able to provide training for people who are currently not employed and who want to be employed, but I think that’s the answer. As we stated earlier, Diavik is complying with the terms of the socioeconomic agreement. Their explanation for having to do this is one of a very hot economy in western Canada and the fact that 30 percent of their workforce is coming from the South is highly sought after for southern projects. They’re trying to make sure that there’s not a disincentive for them to come north. It’s quite possible that as these people come north and get more familiar with life in the North, that they’ll in fact want to relocate here, and I don’t think that we can discount that possibility either, Madam Speaker.

So, much of this is hypothetical, but I would say to the Member the Member is aware of people who are specifically coming to his office and suggesting that they’re now going to leave the South, this is the window they’ve been looking for because the $10,000 in northern allowance payments they get from the company was really now something they were going to leave on the table and take the $3,000 travel benefit, and that was the difference. But I’m prepared to sit down and talk to the Member and committee about that. So if the Member has some specific names or incidences, we can sit down and discuss that. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question today might be referred to the Minister of Public Works and Services. In my Member’s statement this morning, I referred to the renovation projects going on in Sachs Harbour and the amount of time that they are taking to renovate the health centre in Sachs Harbour, and also inspections. Madam Speaker, I had a chance to speak with the maintenance superintendent of MACA during the Beaufort-Delta Regional Council meeting in Inuvik, and I also relayed the information to the regional superintendent of Public Works and Services in Inuvik about the problem that Sachs is encountering. I think the question I have for the Minister of Public Works and Services is at what stage are the renovations taking place now for the health centre? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 33-15(4): Status Of Sachs Harbour Public Works Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Member is right; there have been a number of problems with a number of projects in Sachs Harbour. Unfortunately we’ve had weather delays, and that’s one of the issues we have to deal with as residents of the Northwest Territories. Accessibility is hampered at times, as we’ve heard earlier today. The Sachs Harbour health centre renovation is largely complete. They were planning to do a substantial completion inspection in April, but it was aborted due to weather. In fact, the people doing the inspection tried to get into Sachs Harbour yesterday and they were delayed. Weather again became an issue. They are hoping to get in there today. My understanding is that the weather has gotten better and they should be in there today, and we should have an inspection report completed hopefully as early as Monday. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Pokiak.

Supplementary To Question 33-15(4): Status Of Sachs Harbour Public Works Projects

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thanks for the information, Mr. Minister. I think living way up there you depend a lot on the weather I guess. It’s good to hear, as the Minister just reported, that they are planning to go up there. I think once the inspection is complete and the renovations are done, the whole community and people in Sachs Harbour will be very happy to be able to utilize the health centre. So I’m taking the Minister’s word, Madam Speaker, that they are trying to get into Sachs Harbour. We can’t fight with Mother Nature. So I would just like to say thank you for the Minister’s response. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I’m still concerned with this EDAP program that we’re not really getting anywhere, and I’d like to hear some real solid answers from the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. I want to start hearing some real details of how we’re helping honest people out there to get them into houses, and I want to see some reasonability of this program, because I still think it’s out of touch and it’s only helping certain people. The reason I say that is because the program is structured in such a way that if you have two incomes, you’re practically exempt from this program the way the structure is set up. So I am overly concerned that it could be looked as the program of the well connected, and it has the appearance of only helping very few. That being said, I did a little calculation on Canadamortgage.com and if you have a purchase price for a house of $200,000 and you have a down payment of $72,000 your mortgage payment is under $800 a month. So what is the methodology of this program? Is it to ensure that people have payments as little as possible? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 34-15(4): Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as we know, this program, the Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program, is to assist people wishing to get into their own homes through home ownership because they are paying well in excess of 25 or almost 30 percent of their income, which could be better served by getting into home ownership. This is not only for people in the high income bracket, this is also there to assist people and get them out of social housing and get them into home ownership, but only where their income shows that they able to pay to maintain a home, and also be able to ensure that they are paying well in excess of 30 percent of social housing. This is not only intended for people with high incomes. The subsidy program that’s being delivered through this program is a subsidy, which is depreciated over 15 years when that individual occupies that unit. It’s not automatic that you get $70,000. It’s a subsidy that’s provided to those individuals to subsidize them so they can get into home ownership, knowing that they are better off in home ownership than they would be in social housing. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I have two more people on the list for oral questions and the clock is running out. So I would just ask Members to be brief and Ministers to be brief, so we can get those two Members’ questions on the floor today. Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 34-15(4): Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. With that in mind then I’ll just ask directly is it the design of this program to get people out of social housing, which is a good thing, but is it designed to get them out of social housing at any cost? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 34-15(4): Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as I stated, this program has assisted 570 people in which we were able to leverage $42 million through bank financing to assist us with these 570 people. Yes, the goal of the program is to get people into home ownership and give people independence so that they are not stuck in social housing. In a lot of communities 90 percent of our houses are social housing facilities. We have to get them into a home ownership program. One of the programs we have is EDAP. The other program is the Independent Housing Program. We have programs designed to assist people to become homeowners. The large portion of the cost of these facilities is based on where you do your assessment. In Yellowknife everyone knows the cost of building in Yellowknife you are looking at $250,000 to $300,000 for a home. In the program we can support people up to 40 percent of the value of the home and the property it is on. So there are maximums of how far you can go with this program. So if you are looking at a $300,000 home, then you can see how 40 percent of that will fall into the number that the Member is talking about. But we hear from this House, we have passed a motion for ourselves to bring down our core needs by 10 percent by 2007 and this is one way that we are going to do that. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Supplementary To Question 34-15(4): Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will agree with the Minister that putting 570 from social housing into home ownership is a great thing, it really is. But we were only able to help 14 people last year. If the Minister wants to mention that we are going to start putting people from social housing into outrageous $400,000 houses, that is a little out of touch. I think the program needs to be cut in half and we could help 28 people with reasonable payments. Would the Minister table the sliding scale of this program, so we can all clearly see how it applies to families so we can get a real sense for this program? Would he table that? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 34-15(4): Expanded Downpayment Assistance Program

Yes, Madam Speaker.