Debates of May 30, 2005 (day 4)

Thank you, Minister McLeod. The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you. I would like to call Committee of the Whole to order. We have a number of items to deal with. We have Ministers’ statements 1-15(4), 3-15(4), 4-15(4), 5-15(4). What is the wish of committee? Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Chairman, the committee wishes to consider Ministers’ statements 1-15(4), 3-15(4), 4-15(4), 5-15(4), specifically with Minister Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. We will continue after a short recess. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Thank you, committee members. We will call Committee of the Whole back to order. As I said, we have a number of items on the agenda today: Ministers' statements 1-15(4), 3-15(4), 4-15(4) and 5-15(4). We are going to discuss these Ministers' statements concurrently, so they are open to be addressed by any Member. Who would like to go first? Comments. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the comments that I have are in regards to the pipeline; the evolution of how things are moving with the federal government, the aboriginal communities, the specific access and benefit agreements that the communities are negotiating with the industry, the development that is happening with the Mackenzie board that would approve these certain permits and licences for the pipeline, and the ongoing discussion between our government and the federal government in terms of royalties, and the different regimes that hope to see some benefits for the people of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Chairman, there are some underlying concerns or feelings that things are maybe up in the air as to what may happen next. It seems that it is a big puzzle, that one piece has to fit in before the next piece. It is very complex and timing is a very crucial step in terms of how we here in the Northwest Territories are going to see or not see a pipeline within the life of this Assembly, or if we have to wait an extra 10 or 15 years.

As lead Minister, Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask the Minister what type of message is he or his department giving to the rest of the people in the Northwest Territories and probably southern Canada, so that would they would have some satisfaction met that, yes, the pipeline is going ahead or there are things that are being worked out that would see a pipeline within the next couple of years, or things are just really too bad and that there is not going to be any pipeline in the future.

I hear that there is work being postponed. I hear that there is other work that is not being worked on this winter. It is a big issue for the people of the North. I believe the Minister is doing his best in terms of ensuring that this project stays on track, stays within the communities, and that there are lines that are being drawn for both the aboriginal governments and our own government in terms of who is taking responsibility for what and what issues are being dealt with through the meetings outside of this government to ensure that there is some security for industry to know that a proposed pipeline could be built and that everyone is taking some responsibility for this project.

I want to ask the Minister what is the message to the people in the Northwest Territories in terms of the Mackenzie Valley proposed pipeline? There are a lot of what-ifs up in the air and there are a lot of scenarios being played out across the Territories. In terms of our government, what is the message that is going out to the communities right now as we speak? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Before we go any further, I just want to make mention of one thing. In an effort to try to make the best use of our time, perhaps if you have a number of questions directed at one Minister, we can try to get you to use up as much of your 10 minutes as you possibly can. I am sure the Ministers can take notes of the questions that you pose during your comments. I think that may be a better use of our time as opposed to going back and forth.

Mr. Yakeleya, I will go to I believe it was Minister Bell. Is that who the question was directed at? Minister Bell? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our message to everybody who is interested in seeing this project move forward and to all northerners is that this government's support for the project is unwavering. We believe that the people on the ground in the communities are eagerly anticipating the project.

We want to see this happen, we want the economic benefits that can come from a development like this, but we want to make sure it’s done in the appropriate manner. We’re very confident that the environmental review process, the cooperation plan that’s been laid out, is a comprehensive review process that will make sure that there isn’t the duplication that we might have seen in past projects, and there’s quite a potential with all the overlapping mandates and a number of different authorities involved that that would happen without this cooperation plan. So we think we’re in for a very comprehensive and thorough environmental review, and we’re in full support of that.

The recent announcements from Imperial, their decision to defer some of the on-the-ground work and refocus efforts on the regulatory process and on access and benefit agreements that they feel they haven’t made the necessary progress on is obviously we’re happy to see the additional horsepower and effort put into these areas, into the regulatory review process and into access and benefits. It is a concern to us that some of the work was deferred. What we need to do is to move as quickly as possible to resolve some of these outstanding issues so that come the late summer and early fall when the public hearing process is slated to begin, the project proponents have the necessary level of comfort and certainty that they need to continue to participate. What we don’t want to see is the project's proponent pull away from the project at that stage, because that would be a significant delay. We think the delay here, the work that has been deferred this summer, is something that can be recovered in terms of critical timing, and still allow us to deliver gas before the end of 2010.

The work that needs to be done on access and benefits agreements is something that we’ve taken a real interest in. The Minister of Finance, the Premier and I have been in Ottawa meeting with our counterparts to try to deal with the outstanding socioeconomic issues and needs and pressures up and down the valley that rightfully should be on the shoulders of northern governments and not the project proponents. We’re owning up to those responsibilities and acknowledging that there’s a lot of work to be done, but also making the very clear point that it’s the federal government that needs to fund the programs and services that are required, and the federal government, to their credit, now have acknowledged that. They’ve acknowledged a responsibility for funding and we’re now negotiating with the federal government and with aboriginal governments a deal that would see us able to address some of these socioeconomic impacts so that we can pave the way for a commercial deal on access and benefits, and that work is ongoing. I know the Premier’s office is in contact with Ottawa this week as well, and the Minister of Finance, his office as well continues that work. So hopefully in the coming couple of weeks we will have additional meetings in Ottawa and look to get a resolution on this issue. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister Bell. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Chairman, I’d like to ask the Premier a question in regard to the AIP that is going to be looked at this spring or possibly this summer with Minister Goodale, Minister Scott and Deputy Prime Minister McLellan in regard to sticking to those time frames in terms of the devolution agreement. In his opinion, in terms of having something signed by the end of this summer on devolution and resource revenue, is this something we will see or something that will give us some security as we move forward with our resource development potential areas in the North? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Bell. Oh, Mr. Premier.

Mr. Chairman, an AIP is still possible this spring, and I am still pushing the federal government and the Aboriginal Summit to work with us on achieving that agreement-in-principle this spring. I can tell you though that as the days go by, I’m getting increasingly uneasy that we’re not going to be able to achieve it. We have to keep in mind this is a tripartite agreement. There’s the Aboriginal Summit, ourselves and the federal government who have to come to agreement. At the negotiating table there’s been less progress than what I would have liked to have seen, and I can’t blame any one side for that, but we’re not moving as quickly on outstanding items.

With the resource revenue sharing AIP in particular, there just have not been the discussions that I wish we had, and I have to say that a lot of that is because of the federal government’s preoccupation on other issues that we haven’t been able to get the meetings we want. But I am still looking to do that before the federal government recesses, but we’ll have to see a more concerted effort if we’re going to achieve it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. I’ve got Mr. Pokiak next on the list.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of quick comments in regard to the opening statements by the Ministers. I made it clear that it’s very important that we move forward with the Mackenzie Valley pipeline issue. It’s too bad that we sort of are reacting to something that Imperial Oil put upon us here in regard to the announcement they made. So we’re put into a place where we’re reacting to something that we should have been prepared for.

Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of things I would like to touch on. One is a question for the Premier on his sessional statement. Again, in his talks with the federal government, it’s very clear he indicated that the federal government is making a real commitment to work with this government and the affected communities along the pipeline route. Can the Premier indicate to people on this side of the House just exactly how committed is the federal government to actually making funds available at this time? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Premier.

Mr. Chairman, the federal government has been more accessible to our government than I have seen and any other government in recent times. They have done a number of things. The most significant so far in terms of getting us new money is the changes to our fiscal formula, but also the Northern Strategy where the Prime Minister has committed to a more strategic view of the North, the commitment to provide us with $40 million. That money, I understand from our Member of Parliament, is coming to us in June. So there is a $40 million commitment there.

On the other area that I don’t know if I want to say the government is not interested, but I know they are preoccupied with basic survival in Ottawa. So it has been difficult to get meetings. The actions that Imperial took did serve as a wakeup call for the federal government, and did cause them to move into action pretty quickly. Now it seems that there are delays that I’d sooner not have in getting their attention. Mr. Chairman, I might also say that as we speak there are aboriginal leaders from the Northwest Territories in Ottawa, and they are also doing their part to keep the government focused on this and I’ve been talking with those who are in Ottawa. I spoke to two of them this morning. So we’ll continue our effort. I think the federal government is trying, but, as I say, they’re preoccupied with other things. They are certainly making the commitments, it’s following through with final agreements that we need to achieve. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m well aware of some of the funding that’s been made available right now, Mr. Chairman, but I think the question I have for the Premier is I’m talking about the money we’re talking about with regard to the social impacts that are concerns for the aboriginal groups. I am well aware of the Northern Strategy money that’s available to this House, but my question is specifically about what was actually talked about in Calgary with the Deputy Prime Minister as to how much money is available for this government to address the socioeconomic impacts. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Premier.

Mr. Chairman, just for clarification, Minister Roland, Minister Bell and I met in Ottawa with the Deputy Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of DIAND and Minister of Northern Development. At that meeting, we did not talk about specific amounts of money. We talked about the fact that socioeconomic impacts are primarily government’s responsibility, primarily our responsibility because those programs are within our mandate. But because we don’t have resource revenue sharing, there is an obligation of the federal government to provide us with money to be able to achieve our needs. They agreed with that. We didn’t talk specific amounts of money because we wanted to talk to the aboriginal leaders first.

When we met in Calgary the following week, it was only with aboriginal leaders, not with the Deputy Prime Minister. At that time, we looked at what our estimate was for the GNWT of meeting socioeconomic needs. That was roughly $50 million on forced growth, mitigating impacts and the capital expenditures. We looked at what the asks were or the requests were from the aboriginal governments. It totalled up to an average of $100 million a year with some years in the initial periods being higher than later on because of the need to improve our capital infrastructure.

So the $100 million a year, until we have resource revenue sharing, was an estimate we worked out with aboriginal governments. We sent that to Ottawa. The federal Ministers have seen it and as we speak today, our officials are in touch with theirs about setting up a meeting. I am prepared to go to Ottawa any time a meeting is set up, whether it’s tomorrow or the day after or the day after that, but I hope to have a meeting this week. My preference is to meet with the federal Ministers and aboriginal leaders. But if that can’t be possible, I will do it again on my own and brief the leaders on why we are doing that, given the short time frame we have to work with.

But there is no commitment on the part of the federal government toward the $100 million. Our deputy ministers did meet with theirs last week and we will continue to rationalize and explain why we feel this amount is necessary. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one last question with regard to the devolution agreement. When you talked about a devolution AIP being signed by the spring, we are at the end of May now. We are pretty well past spring and looking into summer. So when are we actually going to get that AIP in place? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Premier.

Mr. Chairman, on the devolution side, that is the transfer of responsibility, there are five outstanding issues. I don’t think those issues can be or will be resolved at the negotiating table. I am prepared to sit down with Minister Andy Scott and whoever he needs, to come to political agreements on those outstanding items if necessary. As soon as I get a meeting, I want to talk about those.

On the resource revenue sharing side, there has been less of a willingness to come to the table and talk seriously about resource revenue sharing. What we are asking for is an agreement that is very similar to what the provinces enjoy, where we get a percentage of revenues ongoing, but the federal government still seems to be stuck on wanting to offer us a flat amount of money, just a fixed amount of money regardless how much revenues go up or down. That is not acceptable to us. So we have to move them off that.

There are other issues as well on the quantum. This is not, in our view, a token amount of money. This is a fair share of revenues that come off our territory that we are asking for. I don’t think what we are asking for is outrageous, but we want a share of it and we want it done on a percentage basis, not some flat amount that has no relationship to development.

The other issue we have to deal with is the sharing of resource revenues with aboriginal governments. Some seem to be more eager to get into debate with us about how to divide it up before we know what we’ve got. I am of the view that we work together as northern governments to get as much as we can, as good a deal as we can and then worry about dividing it second. If we get into big disagreements about how to divide it up, we may end up with nothing and have nothing to divide up.

In conclusion, I know it’s the end of May. I know we are running out of time. I am getting more and more concerned we may not achieve this. I think it’s very unfortunate if we end up putting this off until fall. Who knows what the agenda will be in the fall in Ottawa. I don’t like that scenario and I am not ready to concede that it’s not going to be done this spring. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. I have Mr. Villeneuve next on the list.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of concerns with Minister’s Statement 5-15(4) by the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs with respect to the $1.3 million that is going to be provided to the NWT for the assessment of the impacts of the proposed Mackenzie gas project. I guess just looking at the numbers and seeing that the 21 communities that are going to be affected will be directly affected or more affected, I should say, with pipeline development which equates to around $50,000 for each one of those communities. With probably more funding available through some of the negotiations with the proponents and even further funding through federal government funding sources for these communities to assess the social, economic and long-term impacts of the Mackenzie gas project, my attention is drawn to the other 11 communities in the NWT that are not considered high impact zones with the Mackenzie gas proponents and with the federal government.

This government here has also committed to providing $50,000 to these 11 community governments for their review and planning and assessing any potential impacts and opportunities with the pipeline construction. I am just wondering if this is a one-shot deal. Is this a one $15,000 deal for these 11 communities, or is this a yearly contribution to the communities to deal with all the technical, professional and legal aspects to review the pipeline impact on these communities?

I think a project of this magnitude is going to affect the NWT everywhere, whether you are right next to the pipeline or whether you are 500 kilometres away from the pipeline. I think there will be as many people moving into communities like Fort Smith, Fort Resolution, Hay River and other non-impact zone communities as will be going into Fort Good Hope, Fort Simpson and all those communities that are right next to the pipeline. I just don’t see how $50,000 for any one of these 11 communities is going to help to do a thorough review of any impact that the community is going to be able to measure from the pipeline project or any opportunities that they are going to be able to identify. I just want to ask if there is any more funding on the horizon for these so-called low impact zone communities that the Mackenzie gas project will be impacting just as much as the communities right along the pipeline route. That’s my first question. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Premier. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the funding that the Member is referring to is the $1.3 million that MACA has brought forward and allocated to the number of different communities based on the level of impact, and this funding was identified as something that was needed through our conference that we hosted in Inuvik in December.

A lot of the community governments came forward and indicated that there was very little and, in some cases, practically no resources out there to assist them to deal with the many demands that were being placed on them as a result of this Mackenzie gas project on top of other things that they were being asked to do in the area of resource development. It was not an area that we expected to fund as a government. Initially we expected the federal government or the proponent to come forward with some of these resources. Our concern has been that there are limited resources for a lot of these communities to deal with the number of issues that are coming forward.

We did come forward with a funding mechanism to Cabinet for consideration. It was approved. In our plans, we identified 21 communities that were affected. The methodology that we used to identify the communities was through the Mackenzie gas project environmental impact statement. They identified the communities that they felt had potential direct or indirect impacts. Through that we made out our list of communities that would qualify for that funding.

The $30,000 that is available includes all these communities, plus Yellowknife. The reason we added Yellowknife is because Yellowknife was the only community that did not fall into that category, however, is an intervener in the review process.

In our view, as the Member has indicated, we agree that all the communities are going to be impacted in some way; however, we felt that there was a need to put more money into some of the communities that were going to be impacted more and at the same time provide some resources to the other communities to deal with any requirements to plan, review or assess any potential impacts or opportunities on the community or by the community as a result of this pipeline construction. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I understand the Minister’s point of view that all communities are going to be affected to some degree with pipeline construction. I guess all I’m really concerned about is the fact that a lot of these communities don’t have housing markets, they don’t have a lot of infrastructure, they don’t have a lot of the amenities that a lot of these other 11 communities probably have, like Hay River and Fort Smith and a couple of these larger centres.

With that being said, you know, I just don’t know how we can say who’s going to be really impacted and who isn’t going to be impacted, because I feel that a community like Hay River and even Fort Smith and Fort Resolution, who have been on the road system, I think there’s going to be a lot of pipeline construction workers who are going to be taking up residence in these communities that have housing markets, these communities that have community development plans that are in the works and have a little more infrastructure in their communities so they can raise families and have decent schools. I think there would be a large influx of construction workers into these communities, as opposed to taking up residence in Fort Good Hope or Colville Lake or anywhere off the road system.

I just feel that $15,000 to do any technical or professional or legal reviews, or even economic impact reviews for any of these communities is really insufficient. I don’t think $15,000 really carries a lot of professional time attached to that. Just to do some social impacts in these communities is definitely going to soak up all that money, not to mention the economic impacts and the infrastructure impacts and the legal research and advice that’s going to be required and the regulatory reviews that maybe some of these communities want to get in on.

Are there any other dollars these communities are entitled to? I know that the federal government funding arrangements are only for these impacted communities that are identified in this environmental impact statement. That goes for proponent funding, too, on any social or economic impact measurements that these communities want to do. All this funding is just for these 21 communities that are identified in that impact statement.

I think maybe if this government was going to fund something like that, that they’d fund maybe more to these other 11 that aren’t privy to this federal government funding and proponent funding and stuff like that to do all these reviews. So why shouldn’t they give more to these other 11 communities as opposed to giving the majority $50,000 to each one of these 21 communities on top of all the other monies they have at their disposal? I just don’t see a balance in that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the intent of this funding was to assist the communities to prepare and deal with the regulatory review process. As I indicated earlier, it was funding we felt we needed to put into the hands of the communities to assist them to deal with the pipeline construction application. The hearings are going to be starting fairly quick this summer, late summer more than likely. The communities needed the resources to be able to deal with it.

There are 11 communities that have been recognized outside of the Mackenzie gas study area. We did not provide a lot of money for them to take part in this process. We were able to provide some dollars, however, our intention was to be able to deal with the communities that were directly affected and recognized by the Mackenzie gas project environmental impact statement or were recognized as interveners.

These dollars are one time. We’re looking at it as a short-term solution to a larger issue. We’re expecting the federal government to have some dollars. My colleague from Industry, Tourism and Investment tells me that we’re expecting some federal intervention money. We’re hoping that will provide the dollars, as the Member is asking, to the communities that were receiving the smaller amount. But this is really intended just to carry the communities through until such time as other dollars can be recognized. It’s a short-term solution.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. I have Mr. Braden next on the list. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A lot of ink and time has been devoted to the issue here. It was, I think, a very useful and decisive move that the pipeline group, lead by Imperial Oil, took the decision to declare not a halt, but a major slow down to all their work, and the message in that was that it signalled that they did not have the confidence to proceed at the same rapid pace as they have had related to political and regulatory problems.

It seems that in the month or five weeks since they took that move, a lot has happened. Indeed, it focussed our minds. We got Ottawa, as the Premier said, to give this project more recognition and urgency and vitality than I’ve ever heard from them. It certainly jolted northern leaders to revisit this immense project and test our commitment to it. I think for a while there, Mr. Chairman, it seemed that we really did have our legs back under us. We were firing on all cylinders and there was a sense of renewed confidence, especially for the people who live in the affected communities up and down the valley who have been looking for the related job and related development work on this project and the investors in communities like Inuvik. Unfortunately, we’re hearing the brakes are being put on the kind of investment this project is going to need in that community.

I haven’t heard that the momentum has been maintained, Mr. Chairman, since we did get our legs and, as I say, we started firing on all cylinders. Whatever analogies you want to make, I’m not seeing the movement along with the sort of urgency and expediency that we all felt was required.

The Premier has been quite candid with us this afternoon in saying that there is indeed a pace in the successive negotiations that is starting to become an issue now. In trying to make a little bit of a list here of all the different levels and layers of negotiations that are going on, there’s the one on the start-up talks for $100 million on the social and infrastructure funding, there are the longer-term negotiations on the resource revenue sharing and devolution regarding all the resources in the Northwest Territories, the negotiations going on between the pipeline group and the First Nations on impact benefit agreements. I don’t know that I’ve even heard when the next meeting date has been set here. So aside from a lot of people saying the right things and nodding in the right direction, are we really that much further ahead in terms of getting this project back on track and advancing it than we were a few months ago?

The Premier is quite correct; Ottawa is the major player here. They are under extreme distraction right now. The sense of frustration comes back again. What can we do to restore the sense of partnership and teamwork and unity that this incredible project could mean for all of Canada, but yet it lags again?

So if we can shake this in any way it’s to ask the Premier on those three different sets of negotiations that at least seem to be apparent on the infrastructure, the impact in our communities, on the resource revenue sharing process, and on the IBA negotiations. Is there indeed sort of a process and a framework that we can anticipate, or are things as much in the air as we might be lead to believe? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m sure that Imperial and its partners are still confident the pipeline is going to go ahead. They’ve spent $350 million or so, so far. They’re continuing to spend on it. It’s not a matter of confidence and we’re still confident it will go ahead. We’re going to work on that assumption. I believe the federal government will want to see it happen, too. So there’s a fair bit of confidence there. But what Imperial has done is slowed down their spending on it because they have to get over the hurdles on access and benefit agreements and on socioeconomic impacts, the regulatory issues and fiscal certainty, those kinds of issues before they continue to invest heavily on the ground with geotechnical work. Otherwise their investors are going to begin to question what they’re doing.

So Imperial has not slowed down. They still have roughly 200 people who are working away every day here on this. A lot of their work is focused on regulatory and on access and benefit agreements and answering requests for more information that have been put forward. So they’re dealing with that side of it. They continue, but they have slowed their spending down.

The aboriginal governments continue, to my knowledge, to deal with the access and benefit agreements and they’re working with us on socioeconomic impacts. The Deh Cho have their own negotiations going on following their legal challenges to the federal government. I understand that’s moving along. So there is a fair bit of negotiating going on between the aboriginal governments, the industry and with the federal government.

The federal government has met with us at the political level. They also have their deputies working on this. The Deputy Prime Minister has appointed a fellow by the name of Horgan. The deputy minister of DIAND is the lead and I believe he’s working full time. His time is dedicated full time to pulling this all together on the federal government’s behalf. So there is a lot of that work going on.

Our officials were in Ottawa late last week and met with their federal counterparts. I am looking at a meeting as early as Wednesday, more likely on Thursday, and I’m ready to get the permission of Members to go to that as soon as we have that if we do get a meeting.

So things are still moving along. I want to make sure we keep that momentum going and I’ll do everything I can to keep this very much a Canadian issue because it is bigger than the Northwest Territories. I want to make sure it’s understood that it’s a Canadian issue right across the country.

So things are moving along, but I guess I get eager and I want to move this along every week with another meeting at the political level. I realize sometimes you have to be more patient than that. I don’t want to give the impression that this is somehow stalled. It hasn’t. There’s a lot of work going on in the back rooms.

As I said earlier, today I’ve spoken to two aboriginal leaders from the Northwest Territories who are in Ottawa right now and both of them assured me they’re raising this at the aboriginal roundtable with the Deputy Prime Minister, with the Minister of DIAND, with the Prime Minister, and so on as well. So we’re continuing to do everything we can. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. I have Mr. Pokiak next. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick question on Minister’s Statement 3-15(4) with regard to fiscal update. I’m just wondering if the Minister of Finance can indicate to us if that panel has been formed yet to visit the issue of formula financing. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the work on the federal expert panel has started, as well as the Council of the Federation panel has been announced and their work is starting. The one with the federal government, the expert panel, is from the federal government viewpoint looking at the whole area of equalization formula financing and will report back by late 2005, around December. The Council of the Federation panel which has a slightly more open mandate to look at both at what we call a vertical and horizontal fiscal imbalance, on that side of it they will be reporting back around December, as well. Hopefully with that work we will be able to substantiate our needs as a territorial government and why we are asking for the funds and the arrangements we have with the federal government. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Roland. I don't have anyone else on the list. At this time, does committee agree that we have concluded discussion this afternoon on Ministers' statements 1-15(4), 3-15(4), 4-15(4) and 5-15(4)?

Agreed.

Agreed. Ms. Lee.

I just have a very short remark to add to the...Not a remark really, I have some questions for the Premier on both resource revenue sharing devolution and this Mackenzie Valley pipeline issue. I know that the government and the Premier and many leaders from the North are trying to bring this together and trying to get a resolution. I have to tell you, Mr. Chairman, when I heard about Imperial Oil pulling out their work for now, or slowing down the work, at first I, like everyone else, was quite alarmed. But I started seeing opportunities for this. I thought an impetus that could give more urgency to this and force the partners to all come together and try to resolve this, all parties including the Deh Cho leadership and their negotiating policies to be worked out. I believe that when human minds, human interests and human desires all converge together, it could be the right moment for a good arrangement to be arrived at.

I remain hopeful that that announcement would be continued to be used as an impetus for this to be resolved. I am thinking, or assuming, that there are a lot of people working hard to get there, not only in the government and in the aboriginal leadership in the North and the business leadership, but business interests around the country and around the world.

Since then we have heard many deals being made by the federal government with various provinces on various files. Over the last few months, the federal minority government has worked out an arrangement for Newfoundland/Labrador. Prime Minister Martin sat in a room for eight hours and worked out some sort of financing arrangement with Premier McGuinty of Ontario. There are slews of announcements being made on early childhood development. I am wondering if the Premier in any of his interactions with the federal government and whether Prime Minister Martin or Deputy Minister McLellan…What do we do to force all the parties, not force, but create and environment where we could…I just think that if Prime Minister Martin could get all the parties together, or if he had the desire to…I think he is one who has shown with his years of business experience, he could, I think, bring all the parties together and work out a deal after eight hours. I don't know if I am totally out in left field on this, but I think if given all the interest and desires…I do believe that everybody in the Territories wants a deal; it is a question of what kind of deal and how it works for them.

In his conversations with the Prime Minister and any of the leaders at the federal level, has any suggestion like that been made or does he see something like that happening? I think I am speaking mostly for the Mackenzie Valley pipeline, but even with resource revenue sharing and devolution. All of us sitting here -- I don't know what it is like for the new Members of this Assembly -- for six years we have been talking about getting close to a deal and still not seeing the results of it. I am wondering if I can ask the Premier that. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ms. Lee. Mr. Premier.

Mr. Chairman, first of all on the resource revenue sharing and devolution, that one we do have a commitment from the Prime Minister and I continually remind the federal government that he made a commitment to have an agreement-in-principle this spring and that we are working toward it.

I think we are closer than we ever have been. As I said, there are five outstanding items. When I get a chance to meet with Minister Scott -- he is the lead Minister on the devolution side -- I intend to propose to him that we resolve those at the political level in what Ms. Lee has referred to as one of those six, or seven or eight hour meetings. We just sit down and do it.

On the resource revenue sharing, that one is a little trickier. Mr. Goodale has been very busy. We haven't made the progress we would like to have made. It is not because we haven't been trying, it is just that the Minister has been harder to get to meet with. We still want to do that and I am at a loss as to how to speed that process up.

Clearly, the Prime Minister has made the Deputy Prime Minister the lead on the Mackenzie Valley pipeline. I have been working closely with her on it. We have had the meetings. I've mentioned we've had three or four meetings with her over the last eight months or so on this issue. The last one was with Mr. Bell and Mr. Roland. We had the NWT Day, of course. We have been doing what we can. I have suggested to the Deputy Prime Minister that she has to meet with more than just me separately and industry separately. I don't believe she has met with the aboriginal leaders, but she has to meet with all of us together.

I recognize that we have a different kind of mandate, too. Industry is doing whatever they can for their investors and the aboriginal leaders are doing, at a regional level, what they need to for their people, and we have to look at the broader public interest. We still have to sit down in one room and figure out how we move this thing ahead. I think meeting separately, in my view, and I have made this known to the Deputy Prime Minister, is not going to achieve the results in the end. We have to get together, whether it is on a bilateral basis with the aboriginal groups for example first, then later with industry; however we do it. But having separate talks is not moving it as quickly as I hope we can.

I will be taking the opportunity, I hope before the end of June, certainly in the summer, before the end of June and possibly this week, to remind the Prime Minister of the commitments that he has made and give him my assessments of the progress we are making or where things are being slowed down, as well. Those are the intentions that I have at this point. I still hope to have a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Ministers of DIAND and Finance this week. Whether it will materialize, we will see. I am told it may happen on Thursday. People are traveling on Friday, but we will see.

Ms. Cournoyea is there this week. I know she has taken the opportunity to talk to the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. The national chief of the Assembly of First Nations is going to be giving me a call. I have been relaying messages back and forth to him, as well, to get him on side. We are making every effort we can to pull this through but, as I say, it is not completely within our control. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Premier. No other speakers on the list. Mr. Yakeleya.