Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, and I wouldn't characterize it as solitary confinement in any way. There's often teachers in the facility to instruct students, or the I guess, yeah, they would be students, as if they were in school. There's, you know, guards who I know that they build relationships with. They might sit down and play a game of chess. So it's not like a solitary confinement situation. Perhaps the deputy minister can provide some more of what the Member's really looking for. Thank you.
Thank you. Deputy Minister Doolittle.
Thank you Madam Chair. And I would certainly suggest that it wouldn't be ideal to remove youth from their communities from the Northwest Territories and send them to, you know, perhaps not just the Yukon but BC, Alberta too. So that's certainly not ideal and probably not in line with the reforms of the 2003 legislation. And as the Minister mentioned, there is significant programming in the youth facility as well. They're looking at new program and to sort of focus on criminogenic behavior as well. So this is something new, but they we do have a contract with ECE to provide educational programming. We try to do some on-the-land programming as well with the youth and other training as well and we can certainly, if the Minister would like us to, provide programs that are available to youth in our facilities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess perhaps I'll have some more questions during the operations budget on the programming. Can the Minister give us an update of the current capacity of our correctional facilities and whether that's in percentage or number of spaces that are being used. I'll note, you know, we're a very small jurisdiction, and we have three prisons or, you know, five, I guess, if you count women's and youth, depending exactly how you count the facilities. How full are they, and just some justification for having so many prisons in such [Audio] territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I have the updated numbers somewhere here. I can look them up.
So at NSCC, we have a capacity of 148, and we have 55 inmates;
SMCC, capacity of 36, and we have six inmates;
Fort Smith Correctional Centre, female, our capacity is 23 and we have four inmates; and,
The male facility in Fort Smith, with a capacity of 21, we have eight.
For a total of 73. And at the youth facility, we have a capacity for 25, and we have one. So we have 74 inmates, a total capacity of 253. So very, very low capacity, which I would argue is a good thing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I think we are all happy to see that both crime rates and incarceration have been going down in a rather predictable rate, which is why we have such low capacity in our prisons. But I guess at one point, I think we have to re-evaluate, you know, running a bunch of facilities with very low numbers, and even whether it's beneficial to inmates to have four, you know, members in a 23-person facility, whether it's better to have larger populations where there's a economy of scale for delivering programming programs. Is the department doing that work, to reevaluate whether we need all of this correctional space? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So we have the female correctional facility, and we can't combine that with the male facility. We have the youth facility, and we can't combine that with the adult facility. At SMCC, we have begun the therapeutic model which is a different type of approach to corrections, and so that is unique. And then we have the two other male facilities, NSCC and the Fort Smith Correctional Centre. Perhaps I can pass it to the deputy minister, firstly, just to talk about that a little more. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister Doolittle.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yes, the department is watching this. Certainly since COVID started early 2020, our numbers began to decrease and, as the Minister mentioned earlier, they have stayed quite low and the department is tracking this but I would suggest that not enough time has passed to analyze this in detail and provide any clear answers. We are reviewing this and, again, trying to manage our facilities in the most efficient way. We need to manage our lows as our highs. It would be unfortunate to close something and then find out, you know, in the near future that we do need these facilities. But it is something on the department's radar.
We did manage to close a pod at NSCC temporarily earlier this year, and there may be some savings, but, again, these are things that are very hard to consider with the infrastructure and the other resources that are used. But there have been some cleaning done, some maintenance issues have been addressed as well, but we do need the budget to do any sort of larger overhauls. But it is something the department is looking at. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. When North Slave Correctional was built, I believe they call it a smudging room, but it was a room with kind of a healing circle in it, and then the Office of the Fire Marshal said that despite the architects and engineers signing off, that we were not allowed to use it. And I believe there was some capital money spent to perhaps get it open again. Can I just have an update on that? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. That work has been done, and I believe the final inspection is on December 3rd. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am very happy that the Member for Yellowknife North started off with the smudge room question because that takes it off my list.
I'm going to start with the three transfer van replacements for NSCC. I'm just wondering why there is a need for three 15passenger vans when there are 55 inmates at the facility. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will point out that we are replacing a significant amount of the fleet of the Department of Justice in this budget. We actually used the vehicles quite a bit longer than I think is suggested by the Department of Infrastructure. But that is because we are aware of the financial situation. I can go to Mr. Bankcroft for some details on why we're replacing three. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Bankcroft.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We'll be replacing three transfer vans from North Slave Correctional Centre. The oldest of those units is actually from 1999. And the second oldest was from 2008. And the third oldest is from 2011.
Although our populations may be low, these transfer vans are required to meet a multitude of mandated operations such as court appearances and offender transports. And the need for three of them is because we have such a large territory, and to be able to transfer inmates from the North Slave region to the South Slave region, we always need to be able to respond to the needs of the courts and having offenders appear before them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I guess I'm wondering if this is a straight transfer to transfer or replacement, sorry, to replacement of a 15passenger van or if looking at the reduced number of inmates because of the new or the new act, if there is a need for less vehicle and then a potential savings down the road, or if it is an actual need for that quantity of vehicle. If the Minister can speak to that, please.
Thank you. Member for or sorry Minister of Justice.
Thank you. Perhaps I can pass that on to the deputy minister. First, I just want to comment that I'm aware that we have lower numbers right now and I've looked into what we can what sort of savings we can expect, if any, understanding that there's often a lot of fixed costs and you don't save a lot if the numbers fluctuate a little bit. But I this is an area where perhaps we will have some savings in the future. But as it stands, these vans presently do need to be replaced. But I can ask the deputy minister for some more information. Thank you.
Thank you. Deputy Minister Doolittle.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And while the trends are low right now with passengers, we can't predict what that will be and we haven't had enough time to analyze that so what was deemed necessary was the replacement of these three vehicles with that capacity count. So that is what the department is doing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just wanted to come back to the conversation around the youth correctional centre and the space that exists there when we typically have, you know, two or three - thankfully, two or three youth in the facility. I'm wondering if the department has at all looked into - because there is a setup where youth can stay at the facility and then leave to go to school or have kind of a I'm sorry, I don't know the proper term but where they are able to leave and come back, if the department has at all look into a situation where youth who are have served their time are able to kind of have a transition period where they can still live at the facility so that it almost operates as kind of a housing option for youth to kind of end the cycle while youth reestablish themselves in school or within the work force and be able to gain the supports of the staff at the correctional centre. I know that some youth have really connected with the staff out there, and kudos to them on a job well done with the youth. But I'm wondering if that is an option that Justice has looked into. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. I would like to hand this over to the deputy minister. Thank you.
Thank you. Deputy Minister Doolittle.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, this is something that we do look at. The court does orders regarding the youth and the appropriate sentence and deterrence. However, we do try to work with our community and the city in Yellowknife for programming that may be accessible to youth; however, we would have to take a look and see what the risks are and if that is appropriate and suitable and if it's better served to do that within the facility. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any further questions, comments to this section? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I'm just curious as to the two vehicles, there's one going into Fort Liard and one going into Fort Simpson? So I'm just puzzled as to why those communities are receiving one or do we have a facility in those communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.
Thank you. We don't have correctional facilities but we do have probation officers in those communities who travel. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I just want to go to I guess the facilities and, you know, looking at what we have in Hay River it's turned into a therapeutic model, and there was a number of renovations that went on over the years. And I don't see anything in here. So I just ask if those renovations are now completed, or are we expecting some additional ones in the near future? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe that the renovations are completed. If not, they are substantially completed and there might be a few little things here and there but I can get confirmation that they're completed? Yes, they're completed. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just I guess we're talking about the Minister mentioned about bed usage and the difference I guess the between how many beds we have and how many are actually being used. Have we seen a consistent decline over years in bed usage, or does it fluctuate quite a bit? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Justice.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have to pass this one off, but I'll say that the current numbers are reflective to, I think, a great extent of the COVID19 situation and the fact that, you know, both corrections, and the courts especially, made the conscious effort to try and reduce the number of inmates. Whether or not those numbers go back up is yet to be seen, but I think that we have seen the numbers stay low and we haven't seen any sort of repercussions in the communities. So I think it's promising and, hopefully, we can keep these numbers down and people don't see a need to keep people incarcerated if it's not necessarily required. But I can ask the deputy minister to provide some more information about year over year trends. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister Doolittle.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And unfortunately, I do not have that detail with me today. The Minister did talk about how the trends are low, and I would say they're historically low and this has been since COVID. They haven't been on a straight decline. There have been, over the past year and a half, a few increases and then down again. But this is something we can certainly take a look at providing if the Minister would like us to do that.
And another thing the Minister mentioned, COVID has possibly made the numbers decrease, but I would also suggest that all the social supports, certainly in the city of Yellowknife, have also added to this. I mean, we haven't had deep analysis into this but it is something that seems to be suggested from those on the front lines and doing the work that this is something that is helping keep our numbers down low within the correctional facilities and perhaps the justice system. Thank you, Madam Chair.
