Debates of October 12, 2005 (day 8)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to recognize my wife of many years.

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During the next couple of weeks while we’re busy here she’s pretty much a bachelorette, I guess it is, out at Prelude. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mr. Handley. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

It is amazing how some of the men could put their foot in their mouth. Sorry. Mr. Speaker, may I just take this opportunity to welcome the best friends of Yellowknife from Tlicho, Chief Leon Lafferty, Chief Gon and Chief NItsiza, as well as former Commissioner Dan Marion. I realize they have been recognized before, but I just want to send a special welcome as well as to our elders in our community, Mr. Ed Jeske and Bishop Sperry. It is always nice to see them. I hope they come every day and watch over us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Ms. Lee. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to recognize Theresa Handley, the Premier’s wife. He said many years, but I think it is worthy of note that it is 40 years.

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Apparently, they exchanged rings and she provided her husband with a lovely polar bear diamond ring, so I assume she has decided to keep him. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today, I want to recognize a constituent, Gayla Wick, who is here representing the Union of Northern Workers, and also chief and friend, Leon Lafferty. I haven’t had a chance to talk to him since his appointment to that position. I am very happy for you, Mr. Lafferty. I know you are going to do a wonderful job for that community, and welcome back. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mr. Bell. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure that I recognize three constituents that I could see from my vantage point. The Right Reverend Bishop Sperry; one of my favourite feisty seniors, Ed Jeske; and Lydia Bardak who wears so many hats there is nowhere to start. So thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to recognize the members of the Tlicho leadership to the House. Also, one of my constituents, Mr. Tommy Lockhart, who also has his daughter here, Fiona Lockhart, who is one of the Pages until Friday; and Shiranda Bull, who is the other Page from Lutselk’e until Friday. Welcome to the House.

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Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. If we have missed anybody, welcome to the gallery. It is always a pleasure to have an audience, welcome. I hope you stick around to hear the rest of the proceedings.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. It is in regard to the Member’s statement I made earlier. Mr. Speaker, it never ceases to amaze me how in government we often throw money at things hoping that that would fix things. Only six years ago, when I got here, our first budget for the NWT post-division was around $700 million. Now we have increased it to almost $1.2 billion. I think it is incumbent on us to make sure that the money we are spending is going to the right places, doing the right thing and doing the things that we want them to do. One of the areas that I pointed out is with respect to this special needs funding where we have seen a 100 percent increase in funding, give or take, from eight percent to 15 percent. I know that the Minister is working to increase that more. I know that the Minister is working to reduce the PTR and such, but I am not at all convinced that we know exactly what we are doing with this money. Especially when I talk to school boards, they don’t really know exactly where the money is going. In Education, I don’t believe the department knows exactly and the Teachers' Association don’t know exactly how this is happening. I would like to ask the Minister what steps he has taken or what is his knowledge of where this money is going and how it is helping the students with special needs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I just want to make it clear just so that everybody understands that the amount of funding that we put into the program is 15 percent of the total amount provided to schools. Funding is not just provided for 15 percent of the students who may be in need of support. Section 7 of the Education Act says that every student is entitled to have access to the education program in a regular instructional setting in the community in which the student resides, and that an education body shall provide a student with the support services necessary to give effect in accordance with the direction of the Minister. That means that every student is supposed to be receiving support right now.

We had a survey that was conducted in the year 2000 to assess the needs in the classroom. That was one of the reasons that the amount of funding was increased from eight percent to 15 percent. We are planning to continue to conduct that sort of survey on a regular basis. We will be doing one again this year.

In terms of accountability, we have a very extensive directive on inclusive schooling that is provided to all divisional educational councils or DEAs. They must follow that directive in order to qualify for the funding, and we demand accountability. We require the DECs and DEAs to report back to the department. So, yes, we are aware of how the money is being spent. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister read out the provision that states that every student who is in need of special needs support has to be receiving it. I suggest to the Minister and this government and even this Legislature that we are not living up to that legislative requirement, Mr. Speaker. There are many cases, and I am sure we could all name students from our very own region who, even from a layperson’s view, are in need of special needs and they don’t get them. There are students in our school system with autism without special needs support. Mr. Speaker, by writing a directive to schools, how does he know where the money is going? Does he know what students need special needs and whether they get them or not? Does he know that, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment doesn’t keep statistics on an individual that would tell us whether or not they may need a certain level of support. What we do with the funding formula is provide assistance to boards to provide staffing for student support personnel who are consultants or program support teachers. We provide funding for materials and specialized equipment for staff development and so on. If the Member is asking about students who may have physical challenges that would be health related, then that isn’t necessarily something that Education, Culture and Employment is providing the funding for. But we do provide formula funding, as I said, for support services to students in a broad area that is supposed to include student services for all students. So the bottom line is that education authorities are responsible for providing whatever services are necessary to help students gain an education. Now, do I disagree with the Member that the funding may not be adequate? No. I would certainly like to see the money increased. I think that we will be able to demonstrate that it can be well used. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Your supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that the Minister works hard to increase funding in special needs, but the Minister has even admitted himself that he has an obligation. We have an obligation to students to provide support to those who need it, and obviously we are not meeting that. I am thinking that the only way we are going to know whether we are meeting them or not, we have to know what the needs are. I am telling you, Mr. Speaker, there are classrooms in our territory where there might be 50 percent of students who need special needs funding, and 10 percent, 15 percent, or eight percent is arbitrary. Will the Minister look into finding out exactly what the needs of special needs students are in the Territories within the next six months? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I meet twice a year with the chairs of the divisional educational councils. They tell me what the needs are in the classroom. We surveyed the teachers in the year 2000 to find out what the needs are in the classroom. I have already said to the Member today that we are going to do that this year. So five years after, we are updating the survey so that we will have an understanding of exactly what the needs are in the classroom. So, yes, we are working to make sure that our programming is designed to deal with the challenges that teachers face in the North. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Your final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to get clarification from the Minister. He indicates that he talks to the chairs of school boards and such. I hope he is not saying that the school board chairs or any of the education professionals have been telling him that the extent of needs for special needs funding is no more than 15 percent. I hope he is not saying that. If he is looking into this question, will he make a commitment that he will live up to the obligation to provide support to students who need it and that he will provide support to every student who needs it once he finds out what the needs are within the next six months, not at the end of the school year? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 89-15(4): Helping Students With Special Needs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am not going to embark on a formal assessment process that would take millions of dollars to assess the special needs of every student. Teachers and educators are qualified to tell us what they need in their classroom to get the job done. That is what we are going to depend on. We have used that method of determining how we should support special needs and will continue to do that. I am quite anxious, like the Member, to see us be able to better support the needs of students in the classroom. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today my questions are for the Minister of Public Works and Services. We have seen newspaper reports that Samuel Hearne was going to be open later in the month. I want to ask the Minister the question that is on everyone’s mind in Inuvik: When will the school reopen so that teachers and parents can get on with their year? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 90-15(4): Structural Problems At Samuel Hearne School

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the plan for reopening of the Samuel Hearne Secondary High School is for about the middle of December, but our goal is to have the classes back in operation in the high school after the Christmas break. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod.

Supplementary To Question 90-15(4): Structural Problems At Samuel Hearne School

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I said in my Member’s statement, when foyers collapse and foundations fail, someone has to be held responsible. Would the Minister give parents, students and teachers some reassurance that their school will be safe when it reopens and indicate whether he has or plans to order an internal investigation to find out who is responsible and what needs to be done to prevent failures like this again? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 90-15(4): Structural Problems At Samuel Hearne School

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it has been identified quite some time ago that with the reduction scenarios that the previous governments had gone through and reduced expenditures in certain areas, and the area of the Capital Replacement Program was one of those areas that took a hit. If we did not bring that capital back up, we would indeed find ourselves in problems. The particular facility in Inuvik as well as the other school in Inuvik have been on the capital plan for quite some time and have been bumped for a number of years. As we know, the planning is proceeding with a replacement of SAMS and we are looking at the replacement of the high school, as well.

Mr. Speaker, I guess, ultimately, when it came down to making the decision on the closure of the high school, as I told parents at the public meeting in Inuvik, I would rather be there apologizing for the fact that we were not able to use the facility for a school at this point. I would rather do that than trying to apologize for the loss of a loved one if we found ourselves in another situation. That is why we made the decision not to open that facility. Safety came first. We have been working around the clock, so to speak, to get the issues addressed with and dealt with on the facility itself so that we can have it open. If the facility opens sooner, we will look at trying to get the classes back into the high school.

On the issue of dealing with the Department of Public Works and Services and the work we do and the events around this facility, a seemingly ongoing venture on this facility, I am, as Minister, taking responsibility for that. The decision is made within my department, and I am taking the necessary steps to ensure that the right actions are taken in dealing with all the events that surrounded the decisions and the process that was used where we found ourselves with that facility. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my questions today to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. It gets back to the statement that I had made earlier. I haven’t got an official response. It has been over three weeks since I have sent an inquiry to his department on what was the just cause for the cancellation of a contract to build two units in Rae. I would like to know why a small company located in my riding is being penalized. They put up the five percent bid bond, they followed all the rules, and they are left with nothing. I would like the Minister to answer what the just cause for the cancellation of that contract was. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 91-15(4): Cancellation Of Housing Tender In Fort Rae

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there was a bid process which did take place. There was one bidder. But there was also another process that was in the works in regards to a negotiated contract from the community of Rae in regards to allowing them to do it through a negotiated contracting process. At the time, under the process for negotiated contracts, you needed the support of the local MLA. They did not have an MLA at the time the request came in. At the same time there was a change in government with the Tlicho Government in the community, and there was a transitional period that was taking place. Because the Tlicho agreement is now in law, we have to abide by that legislation. There are sections of those agreements which we have to consider through a contracting process, especially in regards to section 26 of the Tlicho agreement. Again, these processes have taken place. We have asked the parties to sit down and see if they can work out their differences. We had several meetings but, again, they were unable to resolve it. So we had made an extra attempt to get the parties to try to work this through, but the proposal has gone forward. It has gone to Cabinet going through the negotiated contracting process.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 91-15(4): Cancellation Of Housing Tender In Fort Rae

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to hear that response from the Minister. I guess I am to believe that now the Housing Corporation has only one company they can do business with in Rae. Am I to believe that? What happens to the public tendering process now that the Tlicho have their agreement in place? Is there a public tendering process in place that is fair and open to everybody, or is it just one company that we have to do business with at whatever the price is? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 91-15(4): Cancellation Of Housing Tender In Fort Rae

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have a whole slate of processes that we can take. We can go sole source, we can go negotiated or public tender. The key component of what we are trying to do is build capacity to ensure that those dollars remain in the communities. You build capacity. You have tradespeople and the people that you need to carry out future projects. The biggest challenge we are facing in all of our small communities to date is we do not have tradespeople in those communities to carry out our activities at the Housing Corporation, and other businesses in regards to building high schools and public infrastructure, and we have to find a way to build that capacity. This is one way that we are doing it. I think, because of the opportunities that this allows, we have to look at those things.

Again, what we are seeing in regards to the Gwich’in area through their MOU, they are formulating partnerships with individual companies to come forward through joint ventures and proceed in regards to these tenders by way of negotiated contracts. It has happened in other areas but, again, people have to understand that we are under a different regime by way of the Tlicho land claim agreement. We have to acknowledge that and also accept that there is going to be change through this devolution process. So it is devolving. People have to understand that by working together. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 91-15(4): Cancellation Of Housing Tender In Fort Rae

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can appreciate the Tlicho self-government and where they want to get in building capacity. I can understand. At the end of the day, the contract was cancelled. That was a legitimate contract/tender process that went out and was cancelled. I would like to ask the Minister what he plans on doing to rectify that situation.

I would also like to -- while I've got the floor, just a quick one -- know what the Housing Corporation is currently doing to try to help the Tlicho Government. Are we looking at giving all the housing dollars over to the Tlicho and letting them administer it and, as well, does that include any human resource positions that should be transferred over to the Tlicho Government so they can conduct this work themselves? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. There were two questions there. Mr. Krutko, you can answer one or both.

Further Return To Question 91-15(4): Cancellation Of Housing Tender In Fort Rae

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Housing Corporation reserves the right to accept or reject any bids based on the tendering process. It is spelled out in the tendering documents. It does not always have to go to the lowest tender. Because of that, we are looking to a legal opinion in regards to how this issue will be resolved. We are working on that.

Again, in regards to the Tlicho ability to take over housing, under their self-government arrangement they have that ability once they feel they have the capacity to do so. It is up to them to determine when they want to take over that responsibility. Again, that is part of the devolvement process in regards to the Tlicho Government. We are hoping to work with communities, the Tlicho Government, and other areas, to get them more involved in housing and allow them to take more ownership of housing, but also take on the responsibility of housing in their communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Your final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 91-15(4): Cancellation Of Housing Tender In Fort Rae

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can hear what the Minister is saying: that the Housing Corporation reserves the right to cancel or alter the tender process, but there was only one bidder. There was only one respondent bidder to that tender, and it was cancelled without just cause. That is what I am getting at, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister when I can expect an official response on the just cause for that contract being cancelled. Thank you.