Debates of October 14, 2004 (day 20)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I saw earlier Mr. Dave Legros who is my constituent. I don’t know if he is still there, but if he is I would like to welcome him to the House. Thank you.

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Thank you, Ms. Lee. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 7, oral questions.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Services and it is going to be quite a frank question. When will this family receive the services needed for this child? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Return To Question 214-15(3): Access To FAS/FAE Treatment

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to talk to the Member about this particular situation outside the public confines of this House and share with him the latest briefing note I have, which just came across my desk here in the last few minutes. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

No further questions, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a number of questions today with regard to staff morale and other issues at the North Slave Correctional Centre. The first question I would like to ask the Minister is what steps since last spring when this situation was first outlined to the Minister, has he or his deputy taken to address the staff morale issue at North Slave Correctional Centre? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there was some expectation that with the staffing of the new correctional centre, there would be some extra time required by people and that has come to pass. Staff training and staff workload during the transition to the new centre has disrupted routines and caused some problems. We are still working through that. At the beginning of this month, an additional 12 officers have started the training program and at the end of five weeks from the start of their training, they will be moving into full-time positions within the centre. We think that will do a lot to deal with some of the workload issues that have arisen. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your response. I will go back to the explanation that the Minister gave, which is fine and good, but the problems in staff morale existed well before the changeover to the new facility. His response didn’t really answer the question. What steps have been taken to address the issue of staff morale and also the issue of fair hiring practices at the North Slave Correctional Centre? I don’t think his response answered the question. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Previously, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ramsay didn’t ask a question about fair hiring practices, so I will answer that one first. I am satisfied that the hiring practices undertaken by members of the Department of Justice follow the government standard as set out by corporate human resources and by FMBS. Staffing is a process that is well supervised. The process is set out in the Collective Agreement and it is followed specifically as set out in the Collective Agreement. One of the reasons we’ve had to use so much overtime in the past while, is when the competition was held just prior to the opening of the new facility, the intent was to have the staff come on stream before the move to the new facility, but because of appeals on staffing there was a four-month delay before the positions were filled. So we have to follow the process, as set out under the Collective Agreement. I am satisfied that we are doing that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, if the Minister is satisfied that fair hiring practices are underway at the North Slave Correctional Centre, I wonder why a full-scale internal human resource review is being conducted by one of our senior HR people with FMBS. Maybe he could suggest why that’s happening and maybe stand up and admit there are some serious concerns out there in terms of human resource management. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when allegations are made that there is a problem, then it’s quite normal to look into them. I wouldn’t call it a full-scale review. I have never called it a review. We’ve asked corporate human resources in the Executive to provide assistance to examine the staffing processes and to make sure that the proper procedures are being followed and to make recommendations where change is needed and identify the strengths where we have those strengths. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will get back to the amount of overtime to employees at the North Slave Correctional Centre. For the period of one year, up until May 31, 2004, that amount was $216,395. Between June 1, 2004, and September 30, 2004, that amount was $243,913. Could the Minister explain why it is that his department, who knew for three years that they were moving into a new facility, wasn’t staffed up to the level that it had to be and didn’t take the measures that were necessary to not have to pay this amount of overtime? It’s ridiculous to think that in a four-month period we paid more than we did in an entire year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 215-15(3): Addressing Concerns At North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated previously, corrections did try to staff up for the move. Unfortunately, the process, as it works in government, is sometimes time consuming to fill positions and they were not able to fill those positions prior to the move. That alone led to an increase in the use of overtime, as well as the increased numbers in staffing at the facility. The intention would have been to run another competition sooner had we been able to fill the positions, but because of the length of time the first one took, we’ve gotten behind. Why wasn’t staffing done earlier? Because FMB didn’t agree that the department should have the money in advance of having the facility open.

Oh!

It’s not a situation where the money was available. It was a situation where we didn’t have the money, so it couldn’t be done in advance.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are also to the Minister of Justice with regard to my Member’s statement earlier today. Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you that the huge rate of vacancies at the Correctional Centre and the high amount of money that’s being paid for overtime is just one of the issues I am hearing that are contributing to a morale problem there that is affecting the operation of the centre.

I should also say that I am not speaking on the basis of one or two people who are talking about this; I have heard from many different people from different sectors in the community who have knowledge, interest or concerns about the facility. So my question, Mr. Speaker, is with regard to the review. What exactly is this review and what is the Minister trying to get at with this review? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The review is one that was requested by the department. They approached corporate human resources and asked if they could get some assistance to do an internal review. So it’s our staff along with one representative from corporate human resources assisting them to make sure they’re examining our human resources policies and practices, as said, to identify strengths and weaknesses and to make recommendations to build on our strengths and if they find weaknesses, to recommend where we might make changes within to address those weaknesses. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am trying to be very sensitive because this involves human resources, individuals and staff and such and I don’t want to name any names, but I must say the Minister is very good at skirting the issue either. He is speaking about finding out about strengths and weaknesses and doing a review. Could the Minister indicate what is the question he is trying to get an answer to? What is the problem he is aware of that gave rise to looking into this? Why did the staff of the department come to him and say there needed to be a review? What is the question? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Mr. Speaker, what drove this in large part were questions by Mr. Ramsay and others about what was happening out there, and there were suggestions in those questions that there was a problem with the staffing. I have not said that I believe there is such a problem, but whenever an allegation is made about there being a problem, then it behooves the government and the department to look into that. The department is following through on those concerns. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the information I have is in the last year there has been at least a 20 percent vacancy at the facility. There are 50 correctional officers who work at the facility and there have been up to 12 positions vacant. What is going on in there is much like I was hearing from the hospital. Correctional officers are refusing to answer calls on weekends because they don’t want to have to go in to go to work. That sort of thing causes a lot of problems and there might be a lot of things behind that that the Minister has to address. Would the Minister table in this House a terms of reference for this review or any instruction that his team is working under? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Ms. Lee talked about 12 vacancies. The only time we had 12 vacancies was almost a year ago, November 2003. At the end of September, there were seven vacancies and, as I said, we had 12 officers start training on the 4th of October. So I think that the issue of vacancies is one that is being dealt with. We’ve increased the numbers of positions with the staffing of the North Slave Correctional Centre. It takes a bigger staff complement to run that facility than it did the old facility. So I would argue that the movement is in the right direction. We are filling the positions.

In terms of the terms of reference, I have to review the direction that was taken here. I will have to talk to the deputy minister about what sorts of discussions he’s had with corporate human resources and how the team has been instructed. In terms of whether or not I can table a terms of reference, I will have to look into that and I will get back to the Member very quickly on that issue. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Maybe a House motion to table that terms of reference could give him extra ammunition. He is correct in saying vacancies were between 10 to 12 and it’s going down to eight and seven, but I don’t think the Minister is really appreciating the extent of the problem and that’s what I was trying to say in my Member’s statement. The voice is growing stronger and stronger. One of the concerns I am hearing is the people who should be interviewed for this review are hesitant about speaking out. What is the Minister doing to ensure the staff involved, who should be interviewed in order for this review to be well done and fairly done, know that it is safe and it is okay to be involved in this process? There is that much caution and alarm among the employees, from my understanding. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 216-15(3): Review Of Human Resources At The North Slave Correctional Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also say that I know there are a lot of happy workers at the North Slave Correctional Centre. It’s not as if the entire staff are unhappy. The times have changed and the change in approach has added to the issue of contentment with the workplace. Not all of the staff are pleased with the change in direction and the change in the way the facility deals with inmates. That has caused some concerns among some of the staff. However, a large number of the staff welcome the change and are satisfied with the terms of their employment there.

Now I want to make sure that everybody knows that there are no implications for retribution if they speak to the people involved in reviewing human resources practices at the facility. I will say that publicly and on the record. This is an internal review. It’s not something where we are looking to hang people out to dry. This is something being done entirely within the department to help the department identify strengths and deal with weaknesses where they are found. Therefore, it isn’t a situation where people should be concerned about addressing issues if they have them. We are just looking to make sure that we are doing things right now and, if not, that we find a way to do things better. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment on the Income Support program in relation to persons with permanent disabilities. Mr. Speaker, as you are well aware, persons with permanent disabilities receive an enhanced benefit through the Income Support program for their permanent disability. I just wanted to ask the Minister if he and his department have taken into consideration any available option of creating a program that is separate from an alternative to the Income Support program for people with permanent handicaps in the NWT, so it would not be considered as an enhanced benefit in the Income Support program? I have a really hard time with a person with a permanent disability receiving something that’s supposed to be enhanced. Can the Minister give me some clarification on that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 217-15(3): Income Support For Persons With Permanent Disabilities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The intent is to recognize that some people face different challenges. In order to accommodate that, the benefits can’t be the same for everybody. That’s why the program has been set up as it is. Most jurisdictions in Canada provide some kind of additional benefit for people with challenges or disabilities, so we have taken the same sort of approach. All of our programs are provided under the wings of the Income Support program. All of our programs provide support to people. For instance, the Seniors’ Fuel Subsidy is an Income Support program. Student Financial Assistance is an Income Support program. That’s where all of our programs where we provide assistance to individuals are housed. I am not sure how we can separate part of it because we are convinced that the best way to administer programs that provide support to individuals is to house them in one area, so that we have the same people dealing with the same sorts of issues. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Supplementary To Question 217-15(3): Income Support For Persons With Permanent Disabilities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I know they are all under the Income Support program and under the one department, but many people with these permanent disabilities are in households with other people who are under different Income Assistance programs. In a revision in July 8, 2002, in the eligibility requirements of the Income Support program, it states for the purposes of clarity if either the head of the household or spouse and family is disqualified for any valid reason under the regulations and policies of the Income Assistance program, the disqualifications extend to the family. So if we have disabled people in that family who are receiving income assistance, their disqualifications are carried through because of a family member who has been disqualified from income assistance under a different program. So I don’t think it’s really fair that anybody with a disabled family member with a permanent disability be dinged twice for them making some ends meet over the year and making a bit of money to help their disabled family members. All of a sudden, Income Support is cutting off all family members from Income Support throughout the whole program for anybody in the family. I would like some clarification on why the revision was made to the eligibility requirement in the program regulations. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 217-15(3): Income Support For Persons With Permanent Disabilities

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member sounds like he might be talking about a specific situation. Perhaps it would be best if we could get to the bottom of this by meeting and reviewing the circumstances around that situation. I’d be happy to commit to doing that with the Member if he would like to meet with me outside so we can discuss this specific file or family.

In terms of the program, the Member is right; it is set up so it recognizes the income that comes into the household. That’s done in order to live with the philosophy that we all must first rely on our families before we start to look to government for support. It supports the government’s objective of independent people in the Northwest Territories. There are always reasons to take a look at individual circumstances, so, again, I would be prepared to meet with the Member and see if there are some extenuating circumstances involved in the issue he’s looking at right now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.