Debates of October 15, 2004 (day 21)
Question 224-15(3): GNWT Position On Deh Cho Legal Action
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is to the Premier of the Northwest Territories. Mr. Speaker, Nellie Cournoyea, the chair and CEO of IRC; Fred Carmichael, president of the Gwich’in Tribal Council; Grand Chief Frank Andrew of the Sahtu Dene Council; and the interim president Raymond Taniton, chair of the Sahtu Secretariat, put forward their views on the circumstances surrounding the recent court decision by the Deh Cho. In response, the leaders of the three settlement claims expressed their opinions that the legal actions taken by the Deh Cho represent a threat to the Mackenzie gas project and deliberately undermine the rights of the claimant group and future economic well-being of the three regions. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier what is the position of the Government of the Northwest Territories on the Deh Cho First Nation’s legal action? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The item you referred to, Mr. Yakeleya, is presently before the courts and should not be discussed in this House. So I’m going to rule that question out of order.
---Ruled Out of Order
Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Mr. Speaker, thank you. I would like to follow up on some issues raised regarding Income Support. Sir, this is with the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent. These are chronic issues and it has had an effect on, certainly not all, but a substantive number of clients on an ongoing basis. We have so many rules in place regarding clawbacks and income levels, timelines and deadlines, and repetitive and sometimes very invasive reporting requirements, and it amounts really to controlling, not helping these people. What are we doing, or are we doing anything, Mr. Speaker, to change the way we do business in our approach to supporting these clients? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Braden. Could you clarify to which Minister you are referring your question? Mr. Braden.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question is directed to Mr. Dent, the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.
Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.
Return To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the department responds to comments, suggestions and criticisms that may come from non-government agencies or from standing committees of this House or Members of this House by checking to see whether or not the policies need to be revised or reviewed. So there is a constant process of examination to see whether or not the process that we undertake in the income support field is proper and adequate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.
Supplementary To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This gets us part way into the area that I would like to explore. The Minister is quite correct. You know it is in our policies and the limitations that we design and then we set in those programs. The people who actually deliver these, I have the highest praise for. They handle a difficult job and most of the time, Mr. Speaker, they do it very well. We have ways of monitoring those kinds of things that I have illustrated and that my colleague Mr. Zoe talked about, that have been there for years, Mr. Speaker. What are we doing to really address these issues? As I have asked previously, will you change the way we do business to look after these clients who have different sets of circumstances than the majority? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As well as the ongoing regular consideration of our programs and policies and the response to comments or criticisms, there have been, over the past five, six or seven years, a number of reviews of the program that have resulted in changes; for instance, the way in which we deal with those who have handicaps. They are now treated significantly differently than they were a number of years ago. The program has changed to respond to different needs and different circumstances. As I said, sometimes there have been formal reviews, more often the reviews have been as a result of internal examinations. Some of the issues, though, there haven’t been any changes to because the policy hasn’t been seen as required to be changed. For instance, if we have a policy that says that somebody’s household only qualifies for assistance if they have lower than this income, that policy doesn’t tend to change as quickly as the way in which the program is delivered. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.
Supplementary To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Mr. Speaker, I take up the example that my colleague Mr. Zoe raised, I guess as an illustration of our approach. Of course, it does make sense to have limitations on the amount of support that taxpayers' money goes into in a given household. We have to have some way of measuring and keeping some measure of sound management on this kind of thing. Does it really amount to helping people, or have we simply designed, got our system designed, so that it works very well for us, as legislators and budgeters and policy people, or have we really designed something that looks at this through the eyes and the lives of -- we call them clients -- but they are residents, they are people, they are constituents? When are we going to adjust our systems so that we can accommodate that point of view? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it does right now. I think our system does accommodate differences, but there has to be a policy base for all that we do.
Ten years ago the policy was…For instance, the Seniors' Fuel Subsidy was a universal program. Everybody in the Northwest Territories who was a senior got the program, no matter what their income was or whether they needed it. This Legislative Assembly made a policy change to say that government funds would only be provided to assist seniors for fuel when there was fiscal need, and set the standards then for that fiscal need. There are three different standards, depending on the community in which a senior lives. That was a policy decision. It was set in this Legislative Assembly and agreed to by the Assembly, and the budget is passed for that program based on what is presented in this Assembly. So we as legislators have made those changes to policy in the past and can again make those changes in policy where they are seen as necessary. Those are the sorts of ways in which a policy can be changed, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mr. Braden.
Supplementary To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the answers from the Minister. He did, I think in response to an earlier question, say that there is a process of monitoring and checking and vetting and confirming that what we are doing is indeed the right thing. Can the Minister advise of perhaps the most recent report that there may have been on that, or when the next monitoring or reporting cycle will come up? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 225-15(3): Concerns With Income Support
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there were program reviews in 1995, 1996, another one in 1996, three in 1998, a further one in 2001. Those were the formal ones. We have the ongoing ones. I have had some ongoing discussions with the Sanding Committee on Social Programs, as to the operation of our current Income Support program, and will continue to have that dialogue with them to find out their opinion on our programs and policies.
I am also committed to bringing forward to the standing committee a policy framework for income security and how this government delivers that to the standing committee this fall. So sometime before Christmas I will present to the standing committee a policy underpinning, if you will, for all of our income security programs, just to make sure that we are offering our programs in a consistent and fair manner.
Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to follow up on some of the issues that honourable Member Bill Braden has been raising with the Income Support program. I believe the Minister was talking about the program itself. I think that the program, the low income and the Income Support program today has to start focusing on what people need instead of what the government currently has to offer.
Just to follow up on the point I was making in yesterday's session, Mr. Speaker, about the option where the households all get to lose their eligibility for income support, when one member of the household or the head of the household reaches the ineligibility threshold, this policy basically works against anybody who wants to get out of income support. If a member of the household suddenly goes out and makes a productive choice, carries through with some education, goes out and gets a job and goes beyond the income threshold, that would make them ineligible for income support. Now everybody that is on income support or receives income support in that household is suddenly ineligible, because of this policy that says that the government is saying that families have to start relying on family members for support. I don’t think that that policy stands too well with anybody who wants to go out and get a job and then come home and all of a sudden they are the breadwinner of the family.
I just want to ask the Minister if he would commit to reviewing and clearing up the many inconsistencies between the current Income Support program, and target more support to meet the individual needs in the communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.
Return To Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this House helps me set the policies for Income Support, and I would have to work with Members in this House to review the policy if that is the will. I am quite prepared to embark on that initiative. I have, in fact, started some of that work with the standing committee; it started some time ago. The Standing Committee on Social Programs and I have met several times to talk about the policies, the underpinnings for the program and how it is delivered.
I think one of the things we have to first of all decide is, is this program an entitlement? Right now, our government's philosophy is that you are not entitled to income support. It is a program of last resort, only provided to make sure people are not going to freeze to death or starve to death. It is not an entitlement program where people are guaranteed a minimum income. That is the basic philosophy that underpins the program right now. If that is the type of program, then all of the income that is available to an individual is assessed before this government then tops up what else is available, or tops up what is available to them to bring them up to the absolute minimum. That is all the program has been designed to do right now. If Members want to talk about the philosophy of the program and whether it should be a guaranteed minimum income, or the kind of program we have now, I'm quite prepared to embark on that discussion. We have to remember, of course, that every time we change the philosophy of the program, we're also going to change the cost of the program, and perhaps significantly. So that all has to be worked into our discussions, as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.
Supplementary To Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the Minister for his response. Talking about costs of the program; Income Support beneficiaries and Income Support dollars have been going out to the recipients and beneficiaries and clients in the Tu Nedhe region. Actually, from 1999 to 2003 it has gone up by $50,000, Mr. Speaker. I don't think the program is designed to spend more money for income support, as the Minister has stated. Since 1999, there has been a lot of economic development in the Tu Nedhe region and in the surrounding regions in the NWT, and it seems like there's more Income Support money going out to the communities now than there was in 1999 since all this activity began. I want to ask the Minister if the policy is really to top up everybody's income, then there must be more people unemployed. In the current economic situation that we're in, I don't see how that could happen. I just wanted to ask the Minister if he will put something on the record that says we should revisit the whole Income Support program and maybe split it up into separate programs for disabled people with permanent disabilities, for instance, and…
Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. There was a question there; I'll put it to the Minister. Thank you. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member talked about the increase in payments in income support in the region. One of the things that have driven up the payments is that benefit levels have substantially increased since 1999. The amount that is paid for food, the amount that is paid for accommodation, all of those payments have gone up substantially since 1999. We have a very rich program in comparison to the rest of Canada. Is it rich to people who have to try and get by on it? No. It is a program of last resort. But, yes, the costs have gone up in some regions because the benefits have increased substantially.
The issue of whether or not we would separate it into a number of different programs; in fact, one of the issues that I will be talking to the Standing Committee on Social Programs about is reducing the numbers of programs that we have, because as a policy the government should have a consistent approach to how benefits are provided to people in the Northwest Territories. Therefore, in fact, the policy framework that I mentioned to Mr. Braden that I will be presenting to the standing committee will propose that there be fewer categories, not more. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.
Supplementary To Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm glad to hear that the Minister is looking forward to making some changes in the program. I just wanted to ask the Minister about some of the client information that trickles down to the grassroots level from the policies that are in the Income Support program. A lot of the income support officers in the communities don't have the information available to them to present to clients to make a lot of productive choices. They don't have information on human resource capacity building programs with the federal government; therefore, they can't pass them on to the clients to make some productive choices, and they don't have information on the jobs available in the mines, training programs and such. So a lot of these officers basically are being blamed by their clients for the lack of information they receive and the lack of support and reassessment in the whole program that they're delivering. I just want to ask the Minister if he would be willing to provide some direction to the Income Support program management that information for human resource capacity building, job creation, education and all that, that he makes sure that all this information does get down to the grassroots where the people really need it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, our income support workers undergo regular training, they have a number of occasions a year in which they are provided with information to make sure that they can pass this on to their clients. If the Member has a concern about a particular community, I hope that he will come and talk to me about it and we will address that as quickly as we can. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Dent. Your final supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.
Supplementary To Question 226-15(3): Addressing Income Support Inconsistencies
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would be glad to meet with the Minister sometime to talk about some new policy initiatives that I would have in mind on how we could better support individuals' needs, as opposed to just offering people what the government has to offer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Question 227-15(3): Social Housing Policies For Persons With Disabilities
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise because I have some serious concerns with our social housing policy in my constituency. Mr. Speaker, I have been invited to go downtown to visit some of my constituents who are disabled, and they showed me personally the access they have into their homes, and showed me the difficulties they have with living in these horrific circumstances. I think the policy, as it's designed right now, if there is a policy -- which I will be asking the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation -- is very degrading, because I don't think folks are living in good circumstances. So I will be asking a question of the Minister in reference to a person in a wheelchair who has difficulty getting onto a toilet; I have people with MS who can't even get their scooters into their apartments so they can get charged, because they can't walk, they can't open the doors to the laundry. I guess with all of those points said, to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Speaker, my question is do we have a policy with regard to accessible living for people with disabilities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.
Return To Question 227-15(3): Social Housing Policies For Persons With Disabilities
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as a corporation, we do have units that are designated for people with disabilities. The people who do come forward through the corporation to access our units are given priority, and there are units that are designated for people with disabilities. I'm not too sure if the Member is talking about clients in the Housing Corporation units through North Slave housing or other housing co-operatives that are here in Yellowknife, or if you're talking in general. Maybe the Member could clarify his question.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.
Supplementary To Question 227-15(3): Social Housing Policies For Persons With Disabilities
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if it really matters, because the fact is accessible living should be accessible living, so it should be considered a standard regardless of which envelope they fall under. Mr. Speaker, I will make a true commitment that the landlord did make an effort: they widened doors and they put in bigger showers. But, Mr. Speaker, when I have a person in a wheelchair who can't even reach his towel, he has to throw it on the floor or half in the shower. My question really is what policy do we have under the responsibility of the Housing Corporation, under their arm, their ability, under their policy wing, for accessible living for people who are disabled? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.
Further Return To Question 227-15(3): Social Housing Policies For Persons With Disabilities
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have programs to assist the private sector, seniors and people with disabilities, with regard to different maintenance programs. If that means assisting them by way of having the equipment there that will make life easier for people with disabilities by way of bathroom attachments to the walls so they're able to have access to get in and out of the washrooms, I think those types of things we do have different programs through the corporation, through the home repair program, through the maintenance program for seniors and people with disabilities. So with regard to the Member's question, we are working with the people in the private sector who are able to access the different programs that we deliver. I think it's incumbent upon ourselves here, as Members of the Legislature, to improve the lives of people with disabilities. We do have arrangements, but again they are programs that people have to apply for through the corporation to be able to facilitate and also make these adjustments. So we do have programs through our different maintenance programs to assist in that area.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.
Supplementary To Question 227-15(3): Social Housing Policies For Persons With Disabilities
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but, Mr. Speaker, my constituents have bare cupboards. Their cupboards are bare. I will say clearly why: because they can’t reach them, Mr. Speaker. I went into one unit; the dishes were dirty because they can’t wash them. Every time they reach over the counter, their arms are halfway in the buckets of water in the sink. Mr. Speaker, if you were one of these constituents of mine, and you are trying to get food out of the oven, and you are in a wheelchair or on a scooter or stroller because you have MS, you can only reach with one hand. How do you wheel yourself back to the counter with those things out of the oven? It is impossible. So, Mr. Speaker, we have to be looking at some type of audit on these units. I would certainly like to hear today, because these folks are not living with pride, Mr. Speaker. These folks are living in almost horrific conditions. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear from the Minister today that he would commit to do an audit on these units and deliver a clear policy in the Housing Corporation that demonstrates accessible living as meant to be done in a safe and healthy fashion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.
Further Return To Question 227-15(3): Social Housing Policies For Persons With Disabilities
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would direct the department to look into that and see how many units we do presently have that have accessibility for people with disabilities. I know we do have them in most of our communities, so I won’t have a problem getting that information to the Member.
Question 228-15(3): Gymnasium For Nahanni Butte
Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. I was going to follow up with some questions to the Minister of MACA with regard to my Member’s statement. MACA officials and the Minister met with the community of Nahanni Butte. The community had indicated that this particular item is a high priority for them. It is my thinking that a community’s priority is our priority. Can the Minister confirm that the government still has no plans to provide the residents of Nahanni Butte with a gymnasium until the year 2017?
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod.
Return To Question 228-15(3): Gymnasium For Nahanni Butte