Debates of October 18, 2004 (day 22)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are also to the Minister of Public Works and Services. Mr. Speaker, I must say that every aspect of this contract for the new Legal Aid office is very questionable. Mr. Speaker, I know a little bit about legal aid files; I used to work on legal aid files. There are so many people who don’t get legal aid assistance, and when they do they are doled out two or three hours of legal aid service from a lawyer. Now we’re going to house this program in this most expensive area and I can’t wait for them to tell them, you know, we can spend all the money we have in this mall to sit here, but we can’t give you more than two hours of legal aid service. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the proprietor who got this contract didn’t even meet the deadline. We rewarded them by giving them a sole-source contract. If a student who applied for SFA was delayed, I bet you they wouldn’t get that kind of reward. So I’d like to know how the Minister justifies giving a sole-source contract in a free market like Yellowknife? A sole-source contract for a 15-year lease to a business who didn’t even meet the deadline. How does he justify that, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m glad the Members feel that this is an important service, and that’s why we’ve gone out to set up another office so that all members affected, whether it’s a family separating, can seek service and get that right now that was a difficult thing to offer. Lawyers in one office could not work for both clients if it came to a family separation. We, as a government, recognized that, established the money to develop this space and created a second office. From the information I’m provided, we are not going to reduce the level of service. We are going to increase the level of service to the residents of the Northwest Territories who require this type of service. Again, for the cost of the actual space, an RFP went out that requested general office space and under that request the responses were received. I’ll say again that all three responses that were received did not meet the criteria, but on reviewing all three files it was felt that the one company that did submit -- it missed the timeline, and I’ve been open about that -- fit the criteria enough that we could have some discussions with them and came to an agreement on the price. Again, the price that we worked with was that based on general office space. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister just repeated what I said, which is that the department rewarded the party who did not meet the timeline by giving them a 15-year leasehold contract. Now, I have a problem with that. The second thing is, I resent greatly anybody across the floor saying that when we’re asking questions about the way they’re spending legal aid money that we somehow do not support expansion of the Legal Aid program and I do not appreciate that, Mr. Speaker. I want to tell the Minister and the Cabinet, they know that other NGOs, for example, the Centre for Northern Families, suggested that perhaps this new lawyer practice out of that service. A doctor goes there for service and it’s been a great success. Why don’t the lawyers go where the most services are? Why didn’t the Department of Public Works and Services staff look at places like that or any of the many buildings around the courthouse or downtown area? Why did they go to the most expensive mall and say what do you have? I want to know what regulations there are that the staff could just call anybody and say do you have a place for 15 years. I want to know what the criteria is. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if the Member wants a copy of the RFP that went out, I’ll gladly provide one. The fact is, an RFP went out, responses were received, it was a public exercise and we received three responses. From that, we deemed that they all did not fit the criteria for one reason or another, whether the offer that was made did not fit the question for adequate space or storefront, or easy access, downtown, or the timelines. Based on phone calls we had with these companies, individuals from those companies, we went and discussed with the Legal Services Board what we felt was a viable option. On that we’ve offered a five-year lease with two options of five years. That can be reviewed if it’s felt that at the end of the first term it is not appropriate to continue with that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister still did not give any information about what criteria the staff has to meet in order to call somebody and say I’m looking for space in Yellowknife and I’m ready to do sole source. Because, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister indicated, of the three businesses that applied, none of them met the criteria. So it was a zero. Nobody met the criteria. So as far as I’m concerned, all the businesses in Yellowknife were entitled to have this negotiation with the Minister’s department. So why wasn’t the Panda Mall consulted? Why wasn’t the old Overlander’s space consulted? Why weren’t any other buildings consulted? As far as I’m concerned, when the two proposals didn’t meet the criteria and the third one was late, everybody was starting from zero. It’s wrong for that business that did not even meet the deadline to have the sole-source contract. I want to know what criteria, where is the rule book that governs the staff as to how they act in these cases? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have policies on whether we go RFP, sole source, negotiated contract or public tender, and I disagree with the Member that this was wrong. We went out for an RFP, a public process. We went out to the public and asked for input. We received some input. For one reason or another that didn’t fit the guidelines out there, but they were close enough. We sat down, used the same companies, had discussions about adequate space, and went forward with the one we felt was best at the time. I will provide a copy of the policies to the Member for the guidelines on how we work around these. It’s not something we would do whimsically. We wouldn’t do this just for the sake of one day waking up and deciding whether it is a good day or not to do a sole source. We went through a public process. We took the information from that process and, instead of going out and adding to the cost of more advertising and so on, we took the best deal and went ahead on that basis. I hope that, at the end of the day, we would be better able to serve the clients of the Northwest Territories through this space. A business put in a proposal. It just happens to be downtown in the Centre Square Mall. They put it in. It is not like we went to them, phoned them up and said hey, let’s arm wrestle or strong arm you into providing this service. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister should check his facts, because he has provided information to us that suggests that, in fact, they did call the business and say let’s work out a deal. Mr. Minister, I still want to know when they did meet the original criteria, so everything was zero based, so why do you only deal with those who applied for it who didn’t meet the criteria? The third one was late in the first place. That should have been just written off right away, and you should have started right from the beginning. Shouldn’t that be the common, sensible way to do that? I also want to know why not a proposal like the Centre for Northern Families who had a proposal. If the Minister is going to call anybody to do it, why don’t you consider everybody fairly? I am sure the NGO could have done a lot with the 15-year contract to provide legal services in their premises. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 238-15(3): New Legal Aid Office Lease

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, an RFP went out. Three responses were received. Those three responses were looked at and reviewed. We moved on with what we thought was the best option. We worked with the people who responded to a public RFP process. Thank you.