Debates of October 18, 2005 (day 12)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we all know, the programs that are provided through the Housing Corporation are application-based programs. We have worked out different pilot projects in different communities with the First Nations' governments so that they can work with their membership to make these improvements; but a lot of these programs are based on need; and we definitely try to focus on those people in those conditions that the Member mentions. Again, it’s important for the public to realize that you have to fill out an application for these programs, and I think it’s important that we give communities the power to identify these individuals and give them the resources to deal with these program responsibilities in those communities. So we are devolving those authorities to communities and making sure that they come forward. Again, as MLAs, you also have an important role to play by coming forward to myself as the Minister and making me aware of these conditions so we can, as a department, address them. I’m glad to say that I find an open door policy a lot better than trying to go through the system of the application, because a lot of people don’t realize they have been approved, but because of the construction season and materials getting in, it usually takes a year or two before they even see the project underway. Again, it’s a cooperative process. We all have to work together to find the solutions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 155-15(4): Access To Housing Programs

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister commit to doing a survey of those households specifically without access to basic services, and develop a strategy to deal with this need based on core housing needs? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 155-15(4): Access To Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in regard to doing another survey, we just completed two surveys. Our surveys are usually done in conjunction with Stats Canada, and we usually do it every two years. So we have done two surveys in the last four years. What I could do for the Members is pull the report identifying those people in your riding, so we can see exactly where they are and where the surveys have pinpointed the core problem areas. We can work with you to resolve that. I will commit to that for the Member.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Your final supplementary, Mr. Lafferty.

Supplementary To Question 155-15(4): Access To Housing Programs

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. My next question is, when can the Minister commit to visiting the Tlicho region to address this serious issue? Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 155-15(4): Access To Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have had the chance to meet with the Tlicho leadership, and I have committed to them to do a tour of the Tlicho region with the Tlicho Government and local representatives of their government to ensure that we find a way to deal with housing in conjunction with each other. Also, going into each of the Tlicho communities, we are looking at possibly November or early December, whenever the time permits; but I have committed to the leadership, and to the Member I commit here today, that we are willing to go into the Tlicho communities in November.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will continue on asking questions of the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. It’s when I hear my colleagues like Mr. Lafferty talk about real and core needs in the community that it just becomes so offensive that we could somehow misdirect millions of dollars in funding. I saw the Tuk seniors’ facility too, and it cost millions of dollars to build that. It’s a beautiful facility that overlooks the ocean; the units are gorgeous. I want to live there, but the people and seniors in Tuk don’t want to live there. How the Housing Corporation could have been so far off the mark as to invest millions of dollars and have no uptake is indicative of a very serious problem. And you can say we debated here on the floor of the House, but you know what, when we debate capital projects here on the floor of the House, we assume the department or the corporation has done their work. We’re not in a position to know whether it’s good planning or not. We rely heavily on what comes forward from departments when we approve capital projects. We don’t have that kind of familiarity with what’s going on in the communities.

So I would like to ask the Minister, now that he’s in charge, what is he going to do to assure us that this kind of thing is not going to happen again? It’s not good enough to reprofile this now after the fact. The fact is it was built, the seniors don’t want it, and it’s costing us a fortune to maintain it. How many more times is this going to happen?

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have seen a lot of communities going away from these seniors’ facilities and trying to get independent housing for seniors to keep the seniors in their homes as long as we can. I think, in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Services also, that there is a cry from communities that they want to ensure that their seniors are housed in their communities and not sent away to long-term care facilities. I think we’re balancing between keeping elders independent and in their own homes as long as we can. Also, we’re trying to ensure that we don’t find ourselves institutionalizing them at regional centres. I think that’s the balance that we’re looking for.

In regard to the facilities that the Members have touched on, I know Tuk is a problem area. I have also been in that facility, and I think that we do have to reprofile and look at multi-purpose facilities where you don’t just simply use them for one reason, and that you’re able to use them for other purposes. Because of the way the relationship between Housing and Health and Social Services is, they identify those facilities, they identify the clients through the surveys they do in communities and also ensure that the facilities are available. So, again, we have to have the flexibility to reprofile our facilities, especially those that are unoccupied, but also keep in mind we want to keep seniors in their homes as long as we can and offer them independence through our IHP program. We have independent housing programs where a lot of seniors now have ownership of their own facilities, but keep them out of those facilities. So, again, we’re trying to do a balancing act. Again, the responsibility also lies with the Department of Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when the Minister says that it’s the wish of his department and this government to keep seniors in their own homes living independently, that just leads into something I referred to earlier in my Member’s statement, which is how can there be such a gap between offering social housing to seniors, zero rent, and offering virtually no support for seniors who are trying. That’s a contradictory statement, Mr. Speaker, to say we’re trying to encourage. What specific programs does the NWT Housing Corporation have today, or are they planning tomorrow to offer some assistance to seniors who want to live independently, who are attached to their own homes, who are well enough to look after themselves, but their neighbour down the street is living in a public housing unit for zero? What are we going to do to close that gap? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as a government, we do encourage seniors to stay in their homes through tax rebates, fuel subsidies, and also that we, as a corporation, have implemented the seniors’ maintenance repair program and are having to deliver it through our LHOs to ensure that the seniors’ furnaces, water pumps, and tanks are maintained every year so that they know that they’re inspected. So we are delivering that program through the Housing Corporation. A lot of our programs in regard to emergency repairs and whatnot are basically structured to homeownership, but a lot of that goes directly to seniors. I think it’s important that seniors don’t feel that there is an unfair disparity between people that stay in public housing and don’t pay rent, and seniors that maintain their own home and require that type of assistance through fuel subsidies, tax rebates and also the other program I mentioned that go to seniors, the emergency repair programs.

Those types of programs are structured toward seniors, but I think we can do more, and I think that we are hoping to have the flexibility to do that. The Member is right; we do have to find a clear way of not seeing disparity between people not paying rent and people trying to maintain their own homes. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister named off a number of subsidies and supports that are available -- tax relief -- things that are available to seniors in their own homes. All of those particular supports are means tested. In other words, if your household income is over a certain threshold, you do not qualify. However, if you are fortunate enough to get approved for public housing, there is no means test. You could be a millionaire and live in social housing as a senior for nothing, as long as you are over 60 and you are in need.

---Laughter

Seriously, you can have a big pension. Alright, maybe a millionaire is an exaggeration. You could have a very large government pension and live in a senior's housing unit for zero rent. Would the Minister consider leveling that playing field a little by charging at least something to seniors in public housing who can afford to pay? We apply means tests to everybody who gets a subsidy; why don't we apply some kind of a means test to people who are getting their rent for free now? Even if it is minimal, even if it is nominal. That money could then go towards leveling the playing field so that all seniors could receive some assistance to live in this costly place. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe that is the whole intention, the whole idea, of centralizing a lot of the social funding that we do have, and that will be administered now through the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. The dollars presently for seniors who don't pay for rent will have to go to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. So we will no longer be subsidizing now. We will be strictly dealing with a new department that deals with social funding.

As we all know, there is $100 million that is out there in regard to some form of a grant or contribution. I think that it is important that we take a look at how those dollars are allocated and ensuring that we consider things, as the Member mentioned, looking at the need thresholds and making sure that everybody takes advantage of it.

I think it is important to realize the federal government also has a role to play in regard to the federal programs that have been mentioned lately, in regard to finding ways of giving the people that are low income and homeowners the grant, through the different grant programs that are being announced. There are also federal programs, but also the responsibility now will lie with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment as of April 1st.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what is the Minister prepared to commit to in the House today in terms of consultation with seniors themselves, with respect to Public Housing Program supports to seniors, seeking the input of people from the communities so that we can avoid the kind of waste that we have seen take place in these communities that have been touched on today? Can the Minister commit to me today that he will put in place a very good consultation process to ensure that the stakeholders are consulted, and that we can avoid this needless waste? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 156-15(4): Housing Corporation Projects

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have been working, in conjunction with the NWT Seniors' Society, and have been able to fund them through a grant in order to allow them to look at housing issues. Also, in regard to their partnership, there are other seniors' initiatives that are taking place, and I think that as a government we have to ensure that we include our seniors by way of consultation. We conduct annual meetings or even meet with the elders' groups and societies in a lot of our communities where we have elders' counsels and whatnot. I think that it is crucial that we do develop a paper that outlines seniors' programs, but also ensures them that they are aware of the changes that are taking place.

Working with the Department of Health and Social Services, the Minister responsible for Seniors, and also working with the NWT Seniors' Society, we are hoping to be able to find solutions to these problems for seniors. Thank You.

Mr. Speaker, in light of the discussions that we are having this afternoon, I want to ask the Minister responsible for the petroleum products division, in terms of emergency needs…This has to do with the increase of fuel prices in the small communities. We are getting mixed messages from our communities.

Even Bern Brown from Colville Lake wrote a letter to me on his old typewriter, saying, why the increase? I guess the issue here is, what forms of communication is the Minister giving to the communities? Because of the mixed messages of resupply, winter barge, winter road resupply and barge supply, and the increase will be here, the increase will be there, what is the message that the department is going to be giving, once and for all, to the communities on this high increase of fuel in our communities this winter?

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the area of petroleum products, notification was sent out to Members, and notification was given out to communities, that an increase was coming effective April 1st. That increase is a result of two things. First, we have gone to a full cost recovery model for pricing of products in communities. That means that the cost of delivering that product to a community is what is going to be charged at that community going forward. In the past, there was a different model used where some communities that had larger volume sales were offsetting the higher costs in the smaller communities. That is no longer happening. We are going with full cost recovery in every community. Secondly, the resupply situation that has happened over the summer has added a further increased cost to the product itself. That is also being reflected in this recent change. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The full cost recovery…I am having a hard time here, Mr. Speaker in terms of the prices that are going to be charged in these small, isolated communities. Wekweeti is $1.56; Nahanni Butte is $1.33; Colville Lake is $1.50; and Paulatuk is $1.50. In terms of helping out the small communities in their traditional lifestyle, it is going to be pretty tough for these people who live in this type of a situation. Can the Minister help me out here by explaining full cost recovery, and what type of support assistance would these people with low income receive in terms of having a decent living? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, from the petroleum products division itself we are not providing any subsidies to individuals out there. There are a number of other programs within other departments that do help out people in the North. One is the seniors' fuel subsidy; another, through income support, possibly, would be a hardship allowance. Again, that is income tested.

What we have done in the petroleum products division is to try to offset the increased cost of home heating oil. Within our stabilization fund, there was enough funding there to lower the price or keep the price from going up further by 10 cents a litre on home heating oil. That is one of the things that we have done, is taken some of that subsidy to lower what the impact would have been had we not applied that 10 cent reduction to home heating oil. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask the Minister, how is this type of information, through the communities down the valley, being communicated? Again, you said the notification went out to the MLAs, to the communities; how is that being…Because of the different mixed messages that the communities are receiving, I'm not too sure in how plain a language you could put it, Mr. Minister, in letting the communities know. Can the people in Colville Lake know that $1.50 will now stay until next year, or is there going to be an increase in the heating fuel or the gasoline fuel? They weren't notified when the prices were increased, and they were in shock, actually. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we can work on doing an information package that we can put out there. We can possibly look at what immediate ways we can get it out to the people, whether it is flyers or something like that. I think we have to, again, recognize the cost of getting information out there. I think we can look at trying to get a package out there that is fairly straightforward as to what the impacts are. The difference would be, now that we have changed the full cost recovery model where we are paying for the basic prices of product, the taxes that are applied to the federal government and ourselves and the commission cost -- the cost of having the fuel delivered in the community by a contractor -- there are basic parameters already there. The only change that will happen now is the actual cost of the product and transportation to the community. The rest will stay relatively stable. That is a thing that will happen. That will happen in the communities where resupply happens in the summer. That will be shortly after resupply happens. An adjustment will happen at that point. After winter resupply, again, adjustments will be made shortly after that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Supplementary To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is the issue here in terms of the price increase in the smaller communities that the Minister has indicated. I hope he sees some communication in advance going out to the small communities of what they are to expect in terms of proper planning, in terms of looking at different options, in terms of paying for the high cost of fuel. Mr. Speaker, in light of the amount of gas we have in the Northwest Territories, it is really hard to see that this type of increase can come down in the Northwest Territories. Can the Minister advise the House that this type of information would also be done in the North Slavey language, or any other language that is primarily an aboriginal language? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 157-15(4): Fuel Price Increases

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we can look at doing some information packages that would be done in the aboriginal language of the regions. Again, we are going to rely on a fair bit of support through community delivery agencies. We have passed information out there about the change. Obviously, that comes up short. We will look at what package we can put together. I am willing to discuss with Members what might be the best move in getting that information out, and work on it from that end of it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to ask questions on housing, as well. I think it is good that we are doing this today because housing was, bar none, the number one issue we heard about in our pre-budget consultation. When we are all aware of the housing crisis, it is really important that we spend every penny we have in the housing budget as much as possible. We find here now that the corporation is in a little bit of a crisis mode. It is going through a review of the mandate which we have not seen yet. It has had $30 million of its budget being transferred to ECE. That is a huge hole in its mandate without replacing it with any other kind of project other than this thing called the Novel project, Mr. Speaker. I believe -- and I am an optimist -- the pipeline will go ahead. My nightmare is that, when they come and go, we are going to have 1,400 trailers scattered all over the Territories that nobody wants. That is my big nightmare.

Mr. Speaker, I think we are reasonable to think this because the corporation has not done such a great job on placing 40 trailers. Imagine what they could do with 1,400. Mr. Speaker, there have not been any kinds of documents or anything, discussion papers or anything, a cost benefit analysis. Does the Minister have any plan on letting any kind of information out to the public so the public can judge for themselves what a great deal this is? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Return To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, this idea has been presented through our business plan process. We have talked to committee. We basically have offered tours for committee members to see the facility for themselves. It is not as if no one has been involved in this. I think it is important to realize that this is on the basis that we have a project. Without a project, this idea will not go anywhere. I think that we have to realize that, without a pipeline, this is not…Again, we are in the process of negotiations. This is part of the government’s social impact benefits that we are hoping to derive from the pipeline that is presently under those negotiations. I have been presenting this to the federal Minister, looking at the federal monies that are coming forward. Because this project is so far in the future, we cannot commit to making any capital expenditures until we realize that the project is up and running, the units will be occupied for a number of years during construction, and then where we go after that.

There has been involvement from Cabinet colleagues and the Department of Finance. The federal government is aware of this. Again, we are depending on a lot of these dollars that we are talking about coming by way of the federal government initiatives. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, we are aware that we have some challenges today. We have put proposals to the federal government looking at the $1.6 billion to deal with funding for the next three years. It is not as if we have been doing nothing. We are looking at that by way of getting federal funding. We are looking at somewhere in the range of about $25 million a year with matching funding. Hopefully, we will be able to put 100 units a year on the ground for the next three years. That is the objective we are trying to meet. We are working this through.

Mr. Speaker, those are some of the areas we covered. Again, a lot of these decisions – you talk about Novel – are all based on there being a pipeline. This is the concept that they will use to provide these workforce camps for the pipeline.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you that this proposal was received without a lot of…It was not very well received, let me just say. There were just lots of questions that the Minister has not been able to answer at the committee level.

Instead of providing the information that Members need to make good sound judgment about such a mega project, he has taken the initiative to invite anybody who wants to come and see this trailer in Calgary. I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, there are some really nice trailers in my riding. I know what a trailer looks like. I don’t need to go all the way to Calgary to see what it is going to look like. We are talking about this corporation spending the equivalent to two years' budget for the entire corporation for 1,400 trailers so that the old companies could use it and ATCO could benefit from it, and he hasn’t done a cost benefit analysis. I want to know from the Minister when any of us would see some kind of a document that gives us the goods. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Further Return To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project

Mr. Speaker, I would like to, again, remind the Member that I have presented this to committee. We have given documentation out. Again, this will not see the light of day unless there is a pipeline. We have to work with our different parties that are out there, and that it is all hinging on a decision to go forward for a pipeline. Without that decision, we will not have this project.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Short supplementary, Ms. Lee.

Supplementary To Question 158-15(4): Novel Housing Project